FB: Region 3 fan poll

[Just A Guy]

First Regional Ranking by the Committee using Selection Criteria.

1 Mary Hardin-Baylor 8-0 8-0
2 Wesley 5-0 9-0
3 Johns Hopkins 8-0 8-0
4 Washington & Jefferson 8-0 8-0
T5 Texas Lutheran* 6-1 7-1
T5 Centre* 8-0 8-0
7 Muhlenberg 7-1 7-1
8 Thomas More 7-2 7-2
9 Hampden-Sydney 6-2 6-2
10 Hardin-Simmons 3-2 5-2

NR  USA South Pool A bid. (?CNU?)

*Pool B Framingham State is #5 in the East Region as well!


Projected Pool A in Bold.
Projected Pool B in Italics.

I am very confused..

"So I have 24 AQs, 2 B's and 6 C's."

It looks like we have more than two teams in Pool B....I think I am just missing something.

[umhb2001]

I get this to some degree...

UMHB was down at the half, their first, first down came with like 8 minutes left in the 1st quarter, and they didn't rush over 100 yds, something unimaginable in the history of the team.

BUT...

Hardin Simmons is a rivalry...I don't care what their record is or how long it has been since they have beaten us, but anything can happen. Were these same thoughts given to UWW?

UMHB had 5 INT's, two pick six's, and utterly dominated the third, something they normally do. Their offense is very balanced, so I don't understand the thoughts of underwhelming people. They've taken care of business, won all their games, have beaten who they are supposed to beat, and dominated their in state rival. Sounds like a good thing to me.

Here's the thing. Wesley played a rivalry game with Salisbury. They did what they were expected and hammered them into the ground. UMHB played a rivalry game with HSU and won. I know people like to play the rivalry card, but if you are going to make exceptions for underwhelming games against a rival, shouldn't you also be extra impressed by truly dominant games against a rival? Isn't that a big plus for Wesley in comparison to UMHB?

UMHB has taken care of business and won all their games? So has Wesley, JHU and W&J. That alone doesn't score you top in the region. Dominated their in-state rival? Check to W&J and JHU as well. Wesley of course doesn't have an in-state rival, but they hammered everyone close who would come play them.

So we have to have another way to tell these teams apart. We know Wesley and UMHB are, almost certainly, a different class than JHU and W&J. So all of us move them above. But how do we tell apart Wesley and UMHB this year? That's where it gets hard. Doing the minimum, like coming from behind to win in the second half, is simply less impressive than dominating someone.

I expect the elite teams to dominate. We know they are a cut above. And when one doesn't, for example UMHB simply didn't dominate HSU, that's a little underwhelming. Especially since TLU did beat HSU pretty handily. We're down to splitting hairs for the top teams, and that game, in context of someone being the BEST TEAM IN THE REGION was underwhelming.

Was it underwhelming in terms of being a good D3 program? No, it was a really good win, but being the best team in the region is a different standard. Now I still have UMHB at the top, but for the purposes of who belongs there, it is hard to argue that the result last weekend would have helped their case. It didn't hurt much, but it certainly didn't help. That's what I meant by underwhelming.

It's not a knock on UMHB as a top team, it's just a small x-factor that goes into trying to tell them apart from Wesley.

Let's take a look at these two rivalry teams.

Total Offense: Salisbury 124 HSU 103
Total D:                        210.        89
Last 6 Games                3-3.         5-1
Opp-PPG last 6.                   32.         24
Scoring O.                     85.          70
Scoring D.                    T-189.        114

HSU...Salisbury is not. HSU has progressively gotten better while Salisbury has progressively worsened. Stats show that. Salisbury may go 1-1 and HSU most likely will go 2-0. When you compare this alone, you see that HSU is a far better team now. I'm not saying they'd beat Wesley, but their performance against Wesley at this stage would be better than Salisbury when you look at the numbers.

[Ralph Turner]

First Regional Ranking by the Committee using Selection Criteria.

1 Mary Hardin-Baylor 8-0 8-0
2 Wesley 5-0 9-0
3 Johns Hopkins 8-0 8-0
4 Washington & Jefferson 8-0 8-0
T5 Texas Lutheran* 6-1 7-1
T5 Centre* 8-0 8-0
7 Muhlenberg 7-1 7-1
8 Thomas More 7-2 7-2
9 Hampden-Sydney 6-2 6-2
10 Hardin-Simmons 3-2 5-2

NR  USA South Pool A bid. (?CNU?)

*Pool B Framingham State is #5 in the East Region as well!


Projected Pool A in Bold.
Projected Pool B in Italics.

I am very confused..

"So I have 24 AQs, 2 B's and 6 C's."

It looks like we have more than two teams in Pool B....I think I am just missing something.

Good Question (Sometimes I forget we have new people on the boards every year.)
If a Pool B team is not selected as one of the 2 Pool B bids, then they are considered in Pool C.

[D3MAFAN]

I get this to some degree...

UMHB was down at the half, their first, first down came with like 8 minutes left in the 1st quarter, and they didn't rush over 100 yds, something unimaginable in the history of the team.

BUT...

Hardin Simmons is a rivalry...I don't care what their record is or how long it has been since they have beaten us, but anything can happen. Were these same thoughts given to UWW?

UMHB had 5 INT's, two pick six's, and utterly dominated the third, something they normally do. Their offense is very balanced, so I don't understand the thoughts of underwhelming people. They've taken care of business, won all their games, have beaten who they are supposed to beat, and dominated their in state rival. Sounds like a good thing to me.

Here's the thing. Wesley played a rivalry game with Salisbury. They did what they were expected and hammered them into the ground. UMHB played a rivalry game with HSU and won. I know people like to play the rivalry card, but if you are going to make exceptions for underwhelming games against a rival, shouldn't you also be extra impressed by truly dominant games against a rival? Isn't that a big plus for Wesley in comparison to UMHB?

UMHB has taken care of business and won all their games? So has Wesley, JHU and W&J. That alone doesn't score you top in the region. Dominated their in-state rival? Check to W&J and JHU as well. Wesley of course doesn't have an in-state rival, but they hammered everyone close who would come play them.

So we have to have another way to tell these teams apart. We know Wesley and UMHB are, almost certainly, a different class than JHU and W&J. So all of us move them above. But how do we tell apart Wesley and UMHB this year? That's where it gets hard. Doing the minimum, like coming from behind to win in the second half, is simply less impressive than dominating someone.

I expect the elite teams to dominate. We know they are a cut above. And when one doesn't, for example UMHB simply didn't dominate HSU, that's a little underwhelming. Especially since TLU did beat HSU pretty handily. We're down to splitting hairs for the top teams, and that game, in context of someone being the BEST TEAM IN THE REGION was underwhelming.

Was it underwhelming in terms of being a good D3 program? No, it was a really good win, but being the best team in the region is a different standard. Now I still have UMHB at the top, but for the purposes of who belongs there, it is hard to argue that the result last weekend would have helped their case. It didn't hurt much, but it certainly didn't help. That's what I meant by underwhelming.

It's not a knock on UMHB as a top team, it's just a small x-factor that goes into trying to tell them apart from Wesley.

Let's take a look at these two rivalry teams.

Total Offense: Salisbury 124 HSU 103
Total D:                        210.        89
Last 6 Games                3-3.         5-1
Opp-PPG last 6.                   32.         24
Scoring O.                     85.          70
Scoring D.                    T-189.        114

HSU...Salisbury is not. HSU has progressively gotten better while Salisbury has progressively worsened. Stats show that. Salisbury may go 1-1 and HSU most likely will go 2-0. When you compare this alone, you see that HSU is a far better team now. I'm not saying they'd beat Wesley, but their performance against Wesley at this stage would be better than Salisbury when you look at the numbers.

I have had the opportunity to see Salisbury play in the Empire 8 and will have to agree that since they entered the Empire 8, they have worsened over the last few years (especially this year). When they first arrived, I thought they were going to be competitive, but they dominated the E8 the first year. Nevertheless, the good teams adjusted (not SJF) and has figured the triple option out and they now look like a team that would be in the middle of the pack of any top conference, being able to knock off a top contender every now and then. However, this year's Salisbury is dreadful to watch, their secondary can't cover anyone (literally, figuratively, etc...) which is shocking because their defense has always been top notch and historically really good and has kept them a float when the option somehow always failed in the big games against good/great teams. Needless to say, I think HSU would beat this year's Salisbury team solely due to their secondary being non existent, but in the prior years, I would have easily said Salisbury. Regarding Wesley, I think they would have scored 60 against them, not for missed red zone opportunities. Based on the Wesley games I watched, they can score on anyone and demoralize the other opponents offense, I think Wesley would be a 20 point favorite over HSU.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I get this to some degree...

UMHB was down at the half, their first, first down came with like 8 minutes left in the 1st quarter, and they didn't rush over 100 yds, something unimaginable in the history of the team.

BUT...

Hardin Simmons is a rivalry...I don't care what their record is or how long it has been since they have beaten us, but anything can happen. Were these same thoughts given to UWW?

UMHB had 5 INT's, two pick six's, and utterly dominated the third, something they normally do. Their offense is very balanced, so I don't understand the thoughts of underwhelming people. They've taken care of business, won all their games, have beaten who they are supposed to beat, and dominated their in state rival. Sounds like a good thing to me.

Here's the thing. Wesley played a rivalry game with Salisbury. They did what they were expected and hammered them into the ground. UMHB played a rivalry game with HSU and won. I know people like to play the rivalry card, but if you are going to make exceptions for underwhelming games against a rival, shouldn't you also be extra impressed by truly dominant games against a rival? Isn't that a big plus for Wesley in comparison to UMHB?

UMHB has taken care of business and won all their games? So has Wesley, JHU and W&J. That alone doesn't score you top in the region. Dominated their in-state rival? Check to W&J and JHU as well. Wesley of course doesn't have an in-state rival, but they hammered everyone close who would come play them.

So we have to have another way to tell these teams apart. We know Wesley and UMHB are, almost certainly, a different class than JHU and W&J. So all of us move them above. But how do we tell apart Wesley and UMHB this year? That's where it gets hard. Doing the minimum, like coming from behind to win in the second half, is simply less impressive than dominating someone.

I expect the elite teams to dominate. We know they are a cut above. And when one doesn't, for example UMHB simply didn't dominate HSU, that's a little underwhelming. Especially since TLU did beat HSU pretty handily. We're down to splitting hairs for the top teams, and that game, in context of someone being the BEST TEAM IN THE REGION was underwhelming.

Was it underwhelming in terms of being a good D3 program? No, it was a really good win, but being the best team in the region is a different standard. Now I still have UMHB at the top, but for the purposes of who belongs there, it is hard to argue that the result last weekend would have helped their case. It didn't hurt much, but it certainly didn't help. That's what I meant by underwhelming.

It's not a knock on UMHB as a top team, it's just a small x-factor that goes into trying to tell them apart from Wesley.

Let's take a look at these two rivalry teams.

Total Offense: Salisbury 124 HSU 103
Total D:                        210.        89
Last 6 Games                3-3.         5-1
Opp-PPG last 6.                   32.         24
Scoring O.                     85.          70
Scoring D.                    T-189.        114

HSU...Salisbury is not. HSU has progressively gotten better while Salisbury has progressively worsened. Stats show that. Salisbury may go 1-1 and HSU most likely will go 2-0. When you compare this alone, you see that HSU is a far better team now. I'm not saying they'd beat Wesley, but their performance against Wesley at this stage would be better than Salisbury when you look at the numbers.

You're kind of missing the point.  It's not about whether Salisbury or HSU is better, but the lazy excuse of "it's a rivalry game" which gets thrown around quite a bit to excuse any close victory or surprising loss (St. Thomas fans like to pretend that their losses to St. John's the last two seasons, which are probably going to be what keeps them out of the playoffs, shouldn't count because of the fierce Johnnie-Tommie rivalry).  Maybe the rivalry game feels different to the dudes on the field but it should not be evaluated as anything other than a regular game when compiling rankings and seedings.

[jknezek]

Let's take a look at these two rivalry teams.

Total Offense: Salisbury 124 HSU 103
Total D:                        210.        89
Last 6 Games                3-3.         5-1
Opp-PPG last 6.                   32.         24
Scoring O.                     85.          70
Scoring D.                    T-189.        114

HSU...Salisbury is not. HSU has progressively gotten better while Salisbury has progressively worsened. Stats show that. Salisbury may go 1-1 and HSU most likely will go 2-0. When you compare this alone, you see that HSU is a far better team now. I'm not saying they'd beat Wesley, but their performance against Wesley at this stage would be better than Salisbury when you look at the numbers.

Look, you were the one arguing that in rivalry games it doesn't matter how good the teams are. You started talking about how rivalry games are a different animal. That was your excuse for UMHB being pushed in the first half. Not mine. Now you want to talk about how what really matters is how good the teams are? Pick one set of logic and stick with it.

UMHB had a good win. But it wasn't a dominant performance like I expected from the top team in the region. Is it some kind of slight against UMHB? No. Most teams have an off game now and then.

But I moved UMHB up the week before because they were surprisingly dominant against a good team, I ALMOST moved them down the same single notch because they were surprisingly underwhelming against a good team. How does that not make perfect sense?

I get you are a UMHB guy, but UMHB's last two games were drastically different. One was all that and a bag of chips awesome, and one was, well, they got the job done in the second half. One was impressive, one wasn't really. If you are weighing the two teams the impressive game is a good reason to overcome my previous vote for Wesley, the second almost was enough for me to think Wesley deserved top billing.

[crufootball]

Got a question for the group based on something I saw on the regional rankings page. Someone posted that this was the last year for Wesley to be considered a South region team due to them joining the NJAC next year. I guess it makes sense that you would need/want to be in the same region as the rest of your conference but its not like they are literally moving so logically it doesn't make sense that they would move regions. Also I realize it doesn't really matter come playoff time because that is not how the playoffs are drawn up but for this poll and other things it got me wondering.

[HSCTiger74]

Got a question for the group based on something I saw on the regional rankings page. Someone posted that this was the last year for Wesley to be considered a South region team due to them joining the NJAC next year. I guess it makes sense that you would need/want to be in the same region as the rest of your conference but its not like they are literally moving so logically it doesn't make sense that they would move regions. Also I realize it doesn't really matter come playoff time because that is not how the playoffs are drawn up but for this poll and other things it got me wondering.

  Someone can correct me if this is wrong, but I'm pretty sure that conference affiliation is the determining factor for how the NCAA bases their regional rankings. The same situation occurred when Salisbury joined the E8 a few years ago. Interestingly, though, in that instance the fans on these boards continued to vote for the Gulls in this poll as well as the East Region fan poll. Maybe the same thing will happen with Wesley.

[jknezek]

Got a question for the group based on something I saw on the regional rankings page. Someone posted that this was the last year for Wesley to be considered a South region team due to them joining the NJAC next year. I guess it makes sense that you would need/want to be in the same region as the rest of your conference but its not like they are literally moving so logically it doesn't make sense that they would move regions. Also I realize it doesn't really matter come playoff time because that is not how the playoffs are drawn up but for this poll and other things it got me wondering.

Yep. Traditionally they will move to the East with their new conference. It happened with Salisbury and Frostburg, so I expect it will happen with CNU and Wesley. Not a big deal, but it will more or less enthrone UMHB at the top of the poll until a real challenger arises.

[umhb2001]

I get this to some degree...

UMHB was down at the half, their first, first down came with like 8 minutes left in the 1st quarter, and they didn't rush over 100 yds, something unimaginable in the history of the team.

BUT...

Hardin Simmons is a rivalry...I don't care what their record is or how long it has been since they have beaten us, but anything can happen. Were these same thoughts given to UWW?

UMHB had 5 INT's, two pick six's, and utterly dominated the third, something they normally do. Their offense is very balanced, so I don't understand the thoughts of underwhelming people. They've taken care of business, won all their games, have beaten who they are supposed to beat, and dominated their in state rival. Sounds like a good thing to me.

Here's the thing. Wesley played a rivalry game with Salisbury. They did what they were expected and hammered them into the ground. UMHB played a rivalry game with HSU and won. I know people like to play the rivalry card, but if you are going to make exceptions for underwhelming games against a rival, shouldn't you also be extra impressed by truly dominant games against a rival? Isn't that a big plus for Wesley in comparison to UMHB?

UMHB has taken care of business and won all their games? So has Wesley, JHU and W&J. That alone doesn't score you top in the region. Dominated their in-state rival? Check to W&J and JHU as well. Wesley of course doesn't have an in-state rival, but they hammered everyone close who would come play them.

So we have to have another way to tell these teams apart. We know Wesley and UMHB are, almost certainly, a different class than JHU and W&J. So all of us move them above. But how do we tell apart Wesley and UMHB this year? That's where it gets hard. Doing the minimum, like coming from behind to win in the second half, is simply less impressive than dominating someone.

I expect the elite teams to dominate. We know they are a cut above. And when one doesn't, for example UMHB simply didn't dominate HSU, that's a little underwhelming. Especially since TLU did beat HSU pretty handily. We're down to splitting hairs for the top teams, and that game, in context of someone being the BEST TEAM IN THE REGION was underwhelming.

Was it underwhelming in terms of being a good D3 program? No, it was a really good win, but being the best team in the region is a different standard. Now I still have UMHB at the top, but for the purposes of who belongs there, it is hard to argue that the result last weekend would have helped their case. It didn't hurt much, but it certainly didn't help. That's what I meant by underwhelming.

It's not a knock on UMHB as a top team, it's just a small x-factor that goes into trying to tell them apart from Wesley.

Let's take a look at these two rivalry teams.

Total Offense: Salisbury 124 HSU 103
Total D:                        210.        89
Last 6 Games                3-3.         5-1
Opp-PPG last 6.                   32.         24
Scoring O.                     85.          70
Scoring D.                    T-189.        114

HSU...Salisbury is not. HSU has progressively gotten better while Salisbury has progressively worsened. Stats show that. Salisbury may go 1-1 and HSU most likely will go 2-0. When you compare this alone, you see that HSU is a far better team now. I'm not saying they'd beat Wesley, but their performance against Wesley at this stage would be better than Salisbury when you look at the numbers.

You're kind of missing the point.  It's not about whether Salisbury or HSU is better, but the lazy excuse of "it's a rivalry game" which gets thrown around quite a bit to excuse any close victory or surprising loss (St. Thomas fans like to pretend that their losses to St. John's the last two seasons, which are probably going to be what keeps them out of the playoffs, shouldn't count because of the fierce Johnnie-Tommie rivalry).  Maybe the rivalry game feels different to the dudes on the field but it should not be evaluated as anything other than a regular game when compiling rankings and seedings.

I used the rivalry issue because his rebuttal to my point included the rivalry game with Salisbury. 

[jknezek]

I used the rivalry issue because his rebuttal to my point included the rivalry game with Salisbury.

I don't really want to belabor the point too much but if you reread the quotes you started with the rivalry stuff. I rebutted your assertion that a rivalry game somehow affects the quality of the win by pointing out that IF you believe that then Wesley should have a big point in their favor since they rolled their rival. THEN you tried to point out that Wesley's rival isn't as good as UMHB's rival, which shouldn't have mattered much if it being a rivalry game makes the relative strengths of the teams somehow less relevant. Which is the point you started with here:

Hardin Simmons is a rivalry...I don't care what their record is or how long it has been since they have beaten us, but anything can happen.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I used the rivalry issue because his rebuttal to my point included the rivalry game with Salisbury.

I don't really want to belabor the point too much but if you reread the quotes you started with the rivalry stuff. I rebutted your assertion that a rivalry game somehow affects the quality of the win by pointing out that IF you believe that then Wesley should have a big point in their favor since they rolled their rival. THEN you tried to point out that Wesley's rival isn't as good as UMHB's rival, which shouldn't have mattered much if it being a rivalry game makes the relative strengths of the teams somehow less relevant. Which is the point you started with here:

Hardin Simmons is a rivalry...I don't care what their record is or how long it has been since they have beaten us, but anything can happen.

Exactly.  Let me sum up:

umhb2001: UMHB should be excused for playing a close game against HSU because it's a rivalry game, so the records don't matter.
jknezek: Sure, it's a rivalry game, but still, they had to work hard to win it.  Wesley played their own rivalry game and blew the doors off Salisbury.
umhb2001: Well, HSU isn't as good as Salisbury, so I don't think we should look at those two games the same way.
jknezek: Your very first post said "I don't care what their record is, anything can happen in rivalry games" ??

Close games that seem improbably happen all the time, not just in "rivalry" games.  Texas played a close game this year against Oklahoma, well hot damn, it's a rivalry game, throw out the records!    Well...Indiana (winless in the god-awful B1G) beat Missouri (4-1 in the SEC); if that had happened in a rivalry game people would have said "Well, damn, anything can happen in a rivalry game!" - but since it was an early-season game between two teams from different leagues with no real history, it's just forgotten.

We just remember the weird/close things in rivalry games more, so people resort to this "Man, anything can happen in rivalry games!" logic.  But I don't think there's really any evidence that "rivalry games" have unexpected results or closer margins of victory than non-rivalry games.  It's just a convenient excuse for when a result doesn't jive with what you think should have happened.

[Just A Guy]

First Regional Ranking by the Committee using Selection Criteria.

1 Mary Hardin-Baylor 8-0 8-0
2 Wesley 5-0 9-0
3 Johns Hopkins 8-0 8-0
4 Washington & Jefferson 8-0 8-0
T5 Texas Lutheran* 6-1 7-1
T5 Centre* 8-0 8-0
7 Muhlenberg 7-1 7-1
8 Thomas More 7-2 7-2
9 Hampden-Sydney 6-2 6-2
10 Hardin-Simmons 3-2 5-2

NR  USA South Pool A bid. (?CNU?)

*Pool B Framingham State is #5 in the East Region as well!


Projected Pool A in Bold.
Projected Pool B in Italics.

I am very confused..

"So I have 24 AQs, 2 B's and 6 C's."

It looks like we have more than two teams in Pool B....I think I am just missing something.

Good Question (Sometimes I forget we have new people on the boards every year.)
If a Pool B team is not selected as one of the 2 Pool B bids, then they are considered in Pool C.

Thank you!!!!

[PA_wesleyfan]

 Over the past few seasons we a head to head with Wesley and UMHB to judge them with. I always voted by the practice that the Big Dog , be it Wesley or UMHB or whoever else kept that spot until they lost. JHU has been the most consistent undefeated team the past few years but I  don't know that they could win at Wesley or UMHB.

ON another subject. Will the NCAA balance out the regions next year when Wesley and CNU go to the NJAC next year. I may be mistaken but didn't they do that once before when the  numbers got lopsided in a region?

[jknezek]

ON another subject. Will the NCAA balance out the regions next year when Wesley and CNU go to the NJAC next year. I may be mistaken but didn't they do that once before when the  numbers got lopsided in a region?

I believe the MAC was once considered South Region, so it's possible. I think it would make more sense to move the NJAC if they did it again, considering 5 schools will come from south of NJ with Wesley, CNU, Salisbury, SVa, and Frostburg St making up half the conference. Would be interesting to see if that is done or necessary.