FB: Region 3 fan poll

[crufootball]

RMC has out scores their opponents 161-33, I don't care who you're playing, that's dominance every week. Still, three games is a small sample size, but no reason to drop them when knocking the teeth out of their opponents.

RMC opponents for the most part though have been dominated by everyone they have played

NC Wesleyan is 0-3 with a combined score of 126-21 and Southern Virginia is 0-3 with a combined score of 131-19. Catholic is better at 2-1 but their 2 wins have come against teams that are themselves 0-3 and 1-2.

[Wild Horse Rider]

I think that this is some of the issues that top teams in every division of football have when it comes to scheduling OOC opponents.  If you look at the 8 teams in the region that have received votes it is not a pretty picture.  I did not look into the opponents' opponents but just one level down and here is what I saw:

UMHB is the only team to have played three teams with winning records and that all have positive scoring margins.  I don't think the quality of those opponents have been called into question.
Maryville's opponents have a combined 4-4 record and somehow a zero scoring margin (189-189).
HSU's opponents are 2-4 combined and the overall scoring margin is negative but UWL is a quality opponent.
Trinity's opponents are 2-5 combined and overall have a negative scoring margin but with them I think context has to come into play with the OT loss and the players that were missing (ejection of the LB and the injury to the QB which I believe happened in the second half).  That being said injuries are a part of the game but we are talking a pole with some level of subjectivity.
Berry's opponents are 2-3 combined and overall have a negative scoring margin but I think that the Huntingdon win will look better as the season goes on.
HP's opponents are 2-4 combined and have an overall negative scoring margin.  George Fox has lost as many games this season as they did last and still have 2 quality opponents left so that win may not look as good in the end.
RMC's season was recapped already by crufootball.
Belhaven's opponents are 1-5 and they win the prize for largest per game differential in opponent scoring margin at almost 35 points per game.

This is why I always have a tough time looking at each season as it's own individual thing.  Things like program history, recent success, and returning players have to count for something or all you are doing is looking at wins and how bad you beat the teams on your schedule.  Now I think at some point your record has to hurt you which is why I left UMHB off of my ballot but I have a sneaking suspicion that will change later in the season.  There is also a 3-0 team in the ODAC that no one is screaming about why they have been left off of everyone's ballots and they have a +50 scoring margin.  That is where I think the context to this has to come into play.  Averett has beat everyone on the schedule but Apprentice, Greensboro, and Brevard are not murders row.  At this point in the season not all 3-0 teams and 0-3 teams are created equal and the differing opinions are going to happen. 

[BSCpanthers]

When making my poll I look at W-L, also look at opponents W-L, and early in the season I look at opponents last season W-L.  When you get to week 3 that becomes more difficult because some teams have played two games, others three games and same with the opponents. So the sample size is small. 

The good thing is most of these teams will now be in conference play and begin playing each other.  HS, HP and UMHB are all on each other's schedule, and Trinity and Berry play in 10 days. All these things will become more clear are the season unfolds, which is why we play the games and things change as move along.  That's why college football, at all levels, is so much fun. 

[Wild Horse Rider]

BCS I completely understand that not everyone is going to look at these things the same way which is fine and what separates us from the AI,  I also have so much respect for you leaving Trinity at 5 since that is where you put them in the first pole and no one above them has lost yet (I am assuming you were the 6th place vote for UMHB in week one).  But if we are just using RMC as the measuring stick (again I am assuming that you are the 2nd place vote for them) and looking at their opponents records from the previous year then they have beat a returning:

3-7 NCWC team who only won in conference and the USAC is a bottom tier conference
1-9 SOVA team with the same issue as above
6-5 Catholic team who did finish second in their conference but 5 wins were in conference and I don't think that conference stacks up much better than the USAC

I am not trying to beat a dead horse and I know that it will all sort it self out as the season goes on.  By seasons end I think we will all be looking at some combination of the 8 teams receiving votes in week three along with the potential for Huntingdon to jump in as well as the second place team in the ODAC (likely Hampden Sydney or Bridgewater).

Please don't take this as me coming at you or anything I am just happy to have some sort of active board to pass the time when work is slow.  The USAC board is so quiet these days.  The only team with some semblance of constant support on there outside of me and my Monarchs is the Hawks of Huntingdon.  I would not be surprised if a Maryville or Belhaven supporter gets in the game though depending on how their seasons go.

[rmc1982]

RMC has out scores their opponents 161-33, I don't care who you're playing, that's dominance every week. Still, three games is a small sample size, but no reason to drop them when knocking the teeth out of their opponents.

RMC opponents for the most part though have been dominated by everyone they have played

NC Wesleyan is 0-3 with a combined score of 126-21 and Southern Virginia is 0-3 with a combined score of 131-19. Catholic is better at 2-1 but their 2 wins have come against teams that are themselves 0-3 and 1-2.

I was in a discussion on this very issue last week with a bunch of football alumni and we were all in agreement that if we wanted our program to get to the next level( Elite D3 programs) then we need to do what our basketball program does and schedule every difficult opponent we can early and let the chips fall where they do.The current scheduling fiasco was due to an agreement the ODAC had with the USA SOUTH  for last year and this year, which is ending with last weekends games. It has done us no good and actually , we believe, has hurt us. We should schedule better regional opponents early like CNU, Salisbury, and John's Hopkins if we can to stop this speculation on strength of schedule. Also- the NCAA should have a regional ranking similar to the one in place for basketball that awards not just wins, but wins vs quality opponents as a factor in regional rankings. What we're doing now certainly doesent help, and playing better competition gets you ready for when you have to play much better teams in the playoffs. It also doesent help us that our conference is considered weak by D3 Football standards. Top to bottom we just don't stack up right now. We need to start NOW getting the respect we feel we have earned and deserve, but we can only do that with a revamped non conference schedule!

[Pat Coleman]

the NCAA should have a regional ranking similar to the one in place for basketball that awards not just wins, but wins vs quality opponents as a factor in regional rankings.

Good news! This exists, and it has for decades.

[BSCpanthers]

I actually have RMC ranked 4th, just above Trinity.  The reason they are behind Howard Payne at 3rd is just for the reason that has been discussed.  Yes RMC has dominated everyone, but we really don't know how good they are.  UMHB has lost to three top 10 teams, so we have no idea how good, or bad, they really are.  Trinity should be good, but they lost to the only good they have played, and that team followed up the next week with a loss.  So we really haven't learned anything there.  By the end of week 5, so many questions could be answered, or we may just have more questions then we do now. 

[Ralph Turner]

the NCAA should have a regional ranking similar to the one in place for basketball that awards not just wins, but wins vs quality opponents as a factor in regional rankings.

Good news! This exists, and it has for decades.

Pat got to this before I could write. The problem with football is that there are so few games to evaluate. Basketball is good, but IMHO, baseball is even better. With 40 games, and with the chance for a team to go to a tourney in Florida and schedule 9 games, 7 of whom may finish above .500, you can build some impressive SOS numbers. The committee may be evaluating the 14th Pool C baseball bid among the 10 regions and 6 of those teams on the board have records against regionally ranked opponents that are .530 percentage or better.

My thought is that athletics may not be a high priority among the administrations of several of the ODAC schools.

I have seen that in the ASC/SCAC! A change in Presidents at a school may make a big difference in the success of the team at the conference, regional and national levels.

[BSCpanthers]

This is why D3 needs bowl games, now if we could just figure out how to make it financially feasible.   

So many 8 win teams, even some 9 win teams, sit home for the playoffs.  It would be nice to have something for teams that aren't just conference winners. 

[jknezek]

the NCAA should have a regional ranking similar to the one in place for basketball that awards not just wins, but wins vs quality opponents as a factor in regional rankings.

Good news! This exists, and it has for decades.

Pat got to this before I could write. The problem with football is that there are so few games to evaluate. Basketball is good, but IMHO, baseball is even better. With 40 games, and with the chance for a team to go to a tourney in Florida and schedule 9 games, 7 of whom may finish above .500, you can build some impressive SOS numbers. The committee may be evaluate the 14th Pool C baseball bid among the 10 regions and 6 of those teams on the board have records against regionally ranked opponents that are .530 percentage or better.

My thought is that athletics may not be a high priority among the administrations of several of the ODAC schools.

I have seen that in the ASC/SCAC! A change in Presidents at a school may make a big difference in the success of the team at the conference, regional and national levels.

This may be true at some ODAC schools, but most of them have a fairly high priority for athletics. You don't win, or compete, for Conference/National Titles without a priority on athletics. Guilford has long been a national competitor in golf, R-MC in basketball, H-SC at times in Basketball, Shenandoah and Bridgewater in baseball (though Lynchburg is the reigning National Titlist despite just 2 ODAC titles all time), Lynchburg in soccer and CC and T&F, W&L almost across the board.

We tend to narrow our lens to football, basketball, baseball... and R-MC has had great recent success, but in the annals of ODAC championships, R-MC is actually very much a middle player. W&L has won 259 ODAC championships across all sports, Lynchburg is next with 206, Roanoke with 105, Bridgewater with 67, then R-MC with 64.

It's not necessarily prioritizing athletics so much as prioritizing certain athletics. R-MC is all in on the Big 3. Of their 28 men's titles, 27 have come in football, basketball and baseball, one in golf.  Of Guilford's 26 men's titles, 18 have come in golf. Shenandoah, who hasn't been in the conference all that long, has 4 men's titles, all in Baseball. Roanoke has 18/49 men's titles in Lacrosse. Lynchburg and W&L are all over the place, but Lynchburg has 77 conference titles in CC and indoor and outdoor T&F, W&L's titles are least likely to come in Baseball and Basketball, but 40 men's tennis titles out of 45 awarded and 31/39 on the women's side, shows some focus.

I think the more recent members, Averett and Ferrum, have suffered from coming to the ODAC. They were much more respectable across the board in sports in the USASAC, and probably the same can be said about Shenandoah which endured an atrocious start to their ODAC membership before becoming respectable. But even now, I don't think R-MC has ever won a men's or women's Commissioner's Cup (All-Sports Trophy). Though the ODAC website has all but removed references to that trophy these days.

Most of the ODAC schools have at least one sport in which they flourish, EMU in field hockey is a great example. So I think it's less about prioritizing athletics than it is about picking battles. And competing in the Big 3 has the most scrutiny, though baseball probably isn't all that much different than soccer overall, but it's not really the mark of whether a school is prioritizing athletics or not.

[jknezek]

This is why D3 needs bowl games, now if we could just figure out how to make it financially feasible.   

So many 8 win teams, even some 9 win teams, sit home for the playoffs.  It would be nice to have something for teams that aren't just conference winners.

The ODAC has a bowl game. Thankfully it will end with Apprentice and move on to the Landmark Conference in the near future.

[Pat Coleman]

This is why D3 needs bowl games, now if we could just figure out how to make it financially feasible.   

Good news! These exist, and have for decades!

[rmc1982]

the NCAA should have a regional ranking similar to the one in place for basketball that awards not just wins, but wins vs quality opponents as a factor in regional rankings.

Good news! This exists, and it has for decades.

Perhaps my wording was flawed a bit. I realize that they do prioritize quality wins but what Ralph said with so few games in football it's hard to get quality games. Plus at the D3 level travel is a big priority. We used to play John's Hopkins first game every year and it was a good measuring stick for us and I don't know whether it was us or them that pulled the plug but it has really hurt us. We are relatively new at being a perennial power in D3 in Football( if we're even really there yet) and are just getting our name recognizable to many of you in the D3 football upper echelon so we have to do a better job of scheduling and whatever happens is just gonna have to happen. In our world , however, one loss usually means you don't make the playoffs so it's a huge step for us. Like Ralph and others have noted it's easier in basketball or baseball to do this because if the number of games and early tournaments- also travel during Spring Break is great for baseball teams. In a perfect world we could schedule CNU, J-H, or Salisbury 1,2, and 3 and that would be great but it has to work for both teams. Also we could try to schedule Delaware Valley or a Susquehanna or even Muhlenberg- none of these seem too far to travel for us. But in the end it's US that has to change.... Or we're gonna be in the same boat every single year. It's hard to really know how good you are playing sub par competition and in the long run it hurts us rather than helps. I don't blame you guys for saying "Who has RMC played?" Because it's TRUE. We have to do a better job if we want respect, plain and simple!

[Pat Coleman]

Of Christopher Newport, Johns Hopkins, Salisbury, Delaware Valley, Susquehanna and Muhlenberg -- less than half of these programs are really going to help, even. I'd say aim higher. I don't know who Mount Union is playing non-conference after this year, but they are the closest major-major player geographically.

Playing teams who are going to top out in the 11-15 range of the poll won't move the needle when you are comparing to UMHB, HSU and Trinity. Hardin-Simmons has gone begging for D-III opponents for multiple years running.

[jknezek]

Of Christopher Newport, Johns Hopkins, Salisbury, Delaware Valley, Susquehanna and Muhlenberg -- less than half of these programs are really going to help, even. I'd say aim higher. I don't know who Mount Union is playing non-conference after this year, but they are the closest major-major player geographically.

Playing teams who are going to top out in the 11-15 range of the poll won't move the needle when you are comparing to UMHB, HSU and Trinity. Hardin-Simmons has gone begging for D-III opponents for multiple years running.

I don't disagree with you much on these boards, but here is one of those rare cases.

If you can't consistently beat CNU, JHU, Salisbury, Del Val, etc. then there is little point in taking your drubbing vs UMU ahead of the first or second round of the playoffs. I know the argument, UWW took on UMU in the early 2000s and look what happened! They became a power because they learned what it takes! Yeah, well, NC Wes had that same thought about 8 years ago, got drubbed several times, and they are still NC Wes, as are most of the teams that tried to "Learn what it takes." Heck every year a team gets to "learn what it takes" in Rd 1 of the playoffs, which ones have gone on to greatness?

If R-MC wants to become a national power, put in the resources, etc. then they should do it. But f'ing around with UMU to find out, or any one of those perennial top 6 type programs, is generally a bad idea. Who has UMU played OOC in the last 15 years that has ratcheted themselves up a level?

2006/07 -- Averett, Nope
2008/09 -- SJF, Nope

2012/13 -- Franklin? nope
2014/15 -- Bethany? nope
2016/17 -- NC Wes? Nope
2018/19 -- Rose Hulman? Nope
2021 -- Westminster? Nope
2022 -- Defiance? Nope

So in 2010/11 they played UW-O. I guess you could say yes to this? UW-O went from middling WIAC to a few great seasons in 12,15,16,17. Was that because they played UMU? Maybe they need a refresher? Or maybe they play in the toughest conference in D3, were pretty good compared to baseline D3 before the series, got a darn good qb for a few years, and now have slid back to being mid-WIAC, which is still probably better than at least 85% of D3.

No, schedule the W&J's, the JHUs, the Muhlenbergs, the Wabashs, JCU, Cortland, Del Val, Trinity, Berry... the teams you need to beat if you are a 4,5,6, type seed. Then when you hit the playoffs and you win that first round game, then you can "find out" in Rd 2. And when you get past that Rd 2 game, maybe then you start to schedule those perennial Top 10s so when you face them in Rd 2 you make Rd 3. Then join the group playing OOC against the cream of the cream. Because now IT IS time to make the case at the start of the season that you deserve the easiest road at the end of the season.

But if you think winning the ODAC 3x in 6 seasons (2016, 2018, 2022 -- no I'm not counting the COVID year), with a very, very good shot at a repeat, has you knocking on the door of UMU, just look at Del Val last year. Good game with R-MC in Rd2, 22-6 easy win by UMU in Rd 3, where UMU was up 20-0 before Del Val pushed in a TD 2/3 the way through the 3rd quarter.