ECACs

[Pat Coleman]

I was mistaken with my comment regarding ECAC bowls, and declining numbers. They're getting enough teams to fill their games, but are top level, just missed NCAA teams putting in for ECAC games?

You might be wrong about football but basketball has definitely had a decline. The ECAC can't fill all the spots it used to have for basketball postseason tournaments.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I was mistaken with my comment regarding ECAC bowls, and declining numbers. They're getting enough teams to fill their games, but are top level, just missed NCAA teams putting in for ECAC games?

You might be wrong about football but basketball has definitely had a decline. The ECAC can't fill all the spots it used to have for basketball postseason tournaments.

And other sports... basketball has combined regions because of the lack of numbers, men's volleyball barely had enough teams to host a single tournament and the top seed wasn't interested in hosting, that also happened in other sports. And while football has filled their bowl games, I believe the number of teams interested in playing has dropped - it just hasn't gotten to a number where making changes to the number of bowl games has been needed.

[lewdogg11]

I think the ECAC games would be a perfect fit for NESCAC teams since it's only definitively ONE more game. and it would expose them to other conferences. You hearing me you dusty old miserable NESCAC founding fathers? 

[ExTartanPlayer]

The main issue with these games are that no one cares. All these teams thought they were NCAA bound until very often only 2-3 weeks before the game. Most players would rather just have the season end then have another week of practice in 30 or 40 degree weather just for a game that doesn't mean anything.

I've discussed this a couple different times on the boards over the years.  This is true for some teams but not all of them.  And yet, somehow it just gets perpetuated on these boards as how every team feels about ECAC games ("...no one cares...") when it's really how maybe 2 or 3 teams feel about ECAC games. 

First, let's pick apart this idea that "all these teams thought they were NCAA bound until very often 2-3 weeks before the game."  Because that's not true at all.  Let's look at last year's participants:

Albright: started the season 1-4 before rolling off five straight wins to close the regular season, then lost to Salisbury in the ECAC game.  Definitely did not think they were "playoff bound" - I think they were probably happy to get rewarded with an ECAC game, closing the season on a roll like that, they got a chance to play one more (hold this thought for a few minutes).

Salisbury: lost their first Empire 8 game of the season and was effectively eliminated with their second league loss (Ithaca) on 10/25, with four regular season games remaining.  Maybe started the season with playoff hopes, but they were quashed at least a month before the season ended.

Salve Regina: started off 2-4 before winning their last four regular-season games and then the bowl game vs. Norwich.  Definitely did not think they were playoff bound at any point.

Norwich: harbored faint playoff hopes with a few weeks to go, but was down a game to Husson and did not have H2H in their favor, would have needed Husson to lose twice in games that they knew they probably wouldn't.  Regardless, even if they did have playoff hopes, it's hard for me to believe the Norwich would turn up their noses at the ECAC because they weren't in the playoffs.

RPI: started 4-1 before losing three straight LL games in October.  Was effectively eliminated from playoffs with 10/18 loss to Rochester, again with 3 regular-season games to go.  RPI also has not been to the playoffs since 2003.  Again, I don't think those guys are sniffing down their noses at the ECAC because they expected playoffs.

Framingham State: actually did harbor playoff hopes through the season's last day and did not get picked in Pool B.  These guys might have been legitimately disappointed about missing the playoffs.  But the team photo on their website after the ECAC victory looks like a bunch of pretty happy guys.

Western Connecticut: finished 7-3, effectively eliminated from playoff contention with 9/27 loss to Framingham, definitely eliminated with 10/25 loss.  This program is two years removed from getting the **** kicked out of them every year in the NJAC.  I don't think they're unhappy about being in the ECAC instead of the playoffs.

Fisher: fits your description to the letter.  Next.

Utica: lost three straight E8 games in October and was eliminated from playoffs by 10/18 for sure (probably by 10/11).  This program has not played in the playoffs in the history of this website. 

Morrisville State: finished 8-2, but I think was technically alive for NJAC title on season's last day if Rowan had been upset by TCNJ.  Again, this program has never been to the postseason of any kind (in fact, they had never had a winning season).

Buffalo State: picked up second E8 loss on 10/25 and was definitely eliminated from playoffs on 11/1 if they weren't already.  Again: this team had not played in the postseason for at least a decade.

Waynesburg: one of the only other teams that actually kinda-sorta fits the bill here.  Was not technically eliminated from postseason until 11/1 loss to Thomas More, and has some nominal history of postseason appearances.

Look at that list again.  It's mostly teams that were eliminated from "playoff contention" by mid-October, and mostly teams with little if any postseason history.  There are maybe three teams on the list (Fisher, Salisbury, and Waynesburg) that genuinely would have reason to turn their noses up at an ECAC invitation because they have a real history of playoff appearances or success.  Most of these teams were probably delighted to get another game.  Here was Bengalsrule's post after their ECAC game last year:

BENGALS finish 8-3 ( applause 😄)!! Many at 1300 Elmwood, and in buffalo ny, are very proud of the kids from Buff State. It's 1 of the few reasons that we've had to cheer this week after what we've been through.

I'm guessing that was the way it was for a lot of those teams.  Morrisville State (first winning season in school history), Albright (rallied from 1-4 to finish the season on a roll)...these guys would have been thrilled to get another game, not saying "Oh crap, we got knocked out of the playoffs with a week to go, guess we'd better put the sleds and pads away and call it quits for the year."
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I have related my own ECAC experience before on these boards.  I played for a Carnegie Mellon team that had been to the 2006 playoffs, returned a lot of key guys (two 1,000 yard rushers, four OL + TE, and six or seven defensive starters) and after starting 2-0 in 2007, we lost a string of close games.  We rallied to win our next couple games and became aware of the prospect of playing in an ECAC game with a week or two remaining in the season.  We ended up hosting Gettysburg and winning 21-20 with a fourth-quarter comeback and game-winning TD pass with 1:53 to go.  It remains one of my favorite memories from any level of football, and I have plenty of good ones.

To a man, the guys on our team were happy to have that game.  No "let's just be done" guys.  No "we should have been in the playoffs again" guys.  It was a chance to punctuate what felt like a special season, bonding together after a tough losing streak, and it's always one of the fun memories that we'll have from playing college football.  So I get very emotional when I see "didn't mean anything" thrown around to describe ECAC games.  It meant plenty to the guys playing in the game, especially the seniors; most of us stood around on the field for a good hour after the game was over, taking pictures, enjoying the memory.

The talk on these boards often mentions disinterested ECAC bowl participants who are bored by the whole thing, having just missed the playoffs.  And that's definitely a real thing that happens.  But it fees like we only ever hear that side of the story on these boards, and usually from fans with somewhat higher expectations (looking at you, Fisher guys)...

SJF has made the NCAAs 5 times in 10 seasons -- ECACs are beneath the program in my opinion, and every season should be striving for the NCAAs and when they don't make it, it is a disappointment.

...who are frustrated themselves at missing the playoffs.  While it's possible that their team does meet the description above (thought they would be going to the playoffs, would rather just call it quits for the season), I do not think that represents the entirety, or even the majority, of the ECAC bowl participants  For every why-the-hell-are-we-doing-this-stupid-thing Fisher, there's a closed-on-a-winning-streak Albright or a happy-to-be-there Buffalo State that might be excited to give their seniors one last game and/or use the ECAC game as a chance to have some fun and maybe carry some momentum into next year.  Here's a really nice post from Bombers last year:

But this weekend, I was framing some engagement photos that my fiancee and I took at Butterfield after the Salisbury game. And as I was doing that, I thought back to the preseason picnic, where Mike Welch announced our engagement to the coaching staff and welcomed the future Mrs. Bombers798891 to the Bomber football family, and how happy that made her. She talked about it for weeks. And I thought about how she'd feel if someone told her that she had to send a certain message to the team simply because they lost to Cortland. Because she would not have cared if the team went to an ECAC bowl game instead of the NCAAs. This season will always be special to her for reasons that didn't show up on that PTI clip of the Cortaca loss.

I mean, this is a ridiculously long post to write here, but I hate seeing this lazy "God, stupid ECAC games, no one cares about them" stuff every year.  I don't think the people writing that have actually talked to many kids who get to play in one of these games.  Fisher, I understand, clearly thinks they're above ECAC games (and their administration is welcome to stop putting in for them any time).  But at least three-quarters of last year's participants were either teams with no postseason history or teams that went on a late surge and probably were happy to get one more game.  The reality is a very, very far cry from "no one cares" and "all these teams thought they were going to the NCAA's until the last 2-3 weeks."

[Div3Fan]

Interesting decision by the ECAC to host all of their regional games in one spot -- Central Connecticut State.

http://www.ecacsports.com/ECACD3FBFEST/ECAC_D3_FB_FEST_release_1

I really like the idea. We'll have to see how well it is executed and how it is received by the schools.

[Jonny Utah]

I think the ECAC games would be a perfect fit for NESCAC teams since it's only definitively ONE more game. and it would expose them to other conferences. You hearing me you dusty old miserable NESCAC founding fathers?

Great idea.  Of course if the NESCAC ever plays in an ECAC game, it shall from this point forward be known as the "Lewdogg11" Bowl.

[AUPepBand]

The main issue with these games are that no one cares. All these teams thought they were NCAA bound until very often only 2-3 weeks before the game. Most players would rather just have the season end then have another week of practice in 30 or 40 degree weather just for a game that doesn't mean anything.

I mean, this is a ridiculously long post to write here, but I hate seeing this lazy "God, stupid ECAC games, no one cares about them" stuff every year.  I don't think the people writing that have actually talked to many kids who get to play in one of these games.  Fisher, I understand, clearly thinks they're above ECAC games (and their administration is welcome to stop putting in for them any time).  But at least three-quarters of last year's participants were either teams with no postseason history or teams that went on a late surge and probably were happy to get one more game.  The reality is a very, very far cry from "no one cares" and "all these teams thought they were going to the NCAA's until the last 2-3 weeks."

Well stated, even if it did take you writing a book to say it. (Pep quoted the new abridged edition here). +K

Pep loves the idea that he can muster the band for one more game of "getting the fight song ready" and playing "On Saxon Warriors!!" And when recruiting, a program can boast that it "made the post-season," which is something to be proud about, particularly in the Empire 8.

[ITH radio]

ECAC President & CEO Kevin McGuiness responded to our questions about the CCSU / D3FBFANFEST announcement from last week, you can read the responses on our Faceback page or tune in at the 50 min mark on the podcast:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ith/2015/10/19/in-the-huddlle--liberty-league-football-talk-show

Would you travel to Hartford to see your school play?

[gordonmann]

When my team was Trinity, I absolutely would've traveled to Hartford to see them.

CCSU is in New Britain and the locals there can be sensitive about that.

What's the link to your facebook page and radio show?  I'll definitely check them out.

Nevermind -- it's right there in your last post. Reading is fundamental.

[gordonmann]

ITH Radio:

Nice job on the Q&A with the ECAC President. Given Frank's professional background, he doesn't need my advice on asking good follow up questions and you couldn't do any follow up questions with a written Q&A. But if you get a chance to follow up with McGuiness, I'd be curious to hear more about how much support this move has among South region members. His written response indicated that the Board supports the move. But if that's the ECAC general Board of Directors, there's not a single representative on the board who has a Division III football program.

http://www.ecacsports.com/inside/about/committees/board/index

I'd hope that they have a broader level of support among Division III than representatives from Southern Maine, Rutgers-Newark, Penn State-Altoona and the CUNYAC for moves involving football.

[Bombers798891]

Would you travel to Hartford to see your school play?

In late November? Ehh...

I mean, the trouble with moving games to a central location is that it raises so many travel issues given the time of year. It's one thing to freeze my butt off. It's another to do it and be facing a long ride home in the dark and snow. It'd have to be a really compelling matchup, or there's have to be some other reason; a senior closing in on a school record, for example.

I know half the schools travel anyway, but half is better than all

[jknezek]

Yeah. I really question the wisdom unless you are going to get a lot of uninvolved local support. The Stagg works because a) it's a championship and people will travel for that on both sides and b) because like it or not, Salem really supports all their DIII championship events really well.

CCSU and it's community is going to have to do the same. They are going to have to make the atmosphere because an ECAC a) is not a culminating championship game and b) it's not going to get a lot of fans to travel on both sides.

I think it's always worth trying something different when an old idea starts to get stale, so I applaud the risk they are taking. I'm somewhat skeptical how well it is going to work out.

[NED3Guy]

Because I have way too much time on my hands, I took a look at the mapquest times from the schools who played in ECAC games last year to New Britan, CT---

RPI = 3hrs
Framingham = 1:37

Utica = 3:22
Morrisville = 4hrs

Norwich = 3:11
Salve = 1:53

West Conn = :53min
Fisher = 5:30

Beyond Fisher's trip, there's nothing too terrible for the "North teams"

For the south however, it gets bad:

Stevenson = 4:58
Albright= 4:07
Salisbury = 6:02
Bethany = 8:26
Buff State = 6:21
Waynesburg = 8:12

Obviously, there will be different teams playing in the games this year; but I can't see this move being a good one for the ECAC.

[Frank Rossi]

ITH Radio:

Nice job on the Q&A with the ECAC President. Given Frank's professional background, he doesn't need my advice on asking good follow up questions and you couldn't do any follow up questions with a written Q&A. But if you get a chance to follow up with McGuiness, I'd be curious to hear more about how much support this move has among South region members. His written response indicated that the Board supports the move. But if that's the ECAC general Board of Directors, there's not a single representative on the board who has a Division III football program.

http://www.ecacsports.com/inside/about/committees/board/index

I'd hope that they have a broader level of support among Division III than representatives from Southern Maine, Rutgers-Newark, Penn State-Altoona and the CUNYAC for moves involving football.

I accept all the advice I can get, Gordon!  That said, that South-based line of questioning was definitely sitting out there for further discussion.  Thank you for quantifying the amount of South football member representation on the ECAC Board -- saves us some legwork for later on.  And thanks to NED3Guy for the mapping of last year's participants.  When we have the scheduling of the ECAC President firmed up, we'll seek questions from here and on Twitter for the interview.  For now, as I suggested on the podcast, the jury is out based on the amount of $$ sponsors chip in and the willingness of teams to drive many hours, even if the costs are defrayed.  I'm curious as to the ECAC's promised future announcements concerning some of these issues.

[Bombers798891]

Because I have way too much time on my hands, I took a look at the mapquest times from the schools who played in ECAC games last year to New Britan, CT---

Beyond Fisher's trip, there's nothing too terrible for the "North teams"

Disagree. Let's take Utica's 3-hour, 22-minute trip. You've got the following possibilities if you live in Utica:

1. If they get the 4 p.m. Friday game: Take time off from work
2. If they get the 8 p.m. Friday game: Either spend the night, or drive until about 2 a.m.
3. If they get the 5 p.m. Sunday game: Get home at about 11:30.

All of this in the Northeast, in the winter, where weather can easily add a lot of time to the equation.

The more I think about this, the more I think it's going to not going to work. That doesn't mean the attempt was a bad idea.As jkenezek said, the ECAC games are stale, there's nothing to lose by trying to shake things up. But overall, I don't think this is going to bring lifeblood to the games