The 2008 Playoffs Thread

[Augie6]

you are correct, but the UMHB team that lost was totally busted up and playing thousands of miles from home.  The RB's that played in that game included a freshman from the JV team, a sophomore LB that was moved to RB to help out and the starting FB.  I watched the game online and it was one of the worst games I ever saw the Cru play.  Saenz just doesn't miss his pitchman and pitch the ball into the end zone.  it happened that day.  Don't get me wrong SOU played well, and they played better as the momentum kept building, but that game took the perfect storm scenario for that result. 

Toby,

I would love to blame Linfield's loss to HSU this year on the fact that Linfield had to travel thousands of miles away from home,  didn't get into their hotel until after midnight, had the games moved up 3 hours to 4pm because of a hurricane, lost their star running back on the second play, and lost their "would have been a star" QB early in the 3rd quarter, and that our corner slipped on a knee on that 3 and 15 on the Cowboys last drive when they pulled out the game.......but I don't think the committee cared what excuses I came up with.

Regardless of the reasons, they lost to a team that was beaten by two other D3 teams.    As WC11 points out, the committee is not really going to care why.  The whole point of this discussion was whether the selection committee got the seedings right or not.  Does that mean the four best teams got the four #1 seeds?  Based on a #1, #2, #5 and #7 seed still standing in the playoffs, I would say probably not.  Some of that is due to travel/geography and some of it is due to teams stubbing their toe in the regular season.  If UMHB and UWW don't lose, they are #1 seeds in the playoffs.  But they did lose and that's why they weren't seeded #1.  Although I don't think they were the top 4 teams in the country, I do think that the four teams chosen as #1 seeds for the playoffs were valid selections based on the performances of all the teams during the 2008 regular season.  IMO, the selection committee got it right.

That being said, it really doesn't matter where a team is seeded and in what region.  As the saying goes, "to be the best, you need to beat the best."  So if every team in the playoffs has the goal of a national championship, you are going have to beat the best teams at some point along that road.  Most people will not remember (or care) if a particular team loses in the second round of the playoffs as opposed to the third round. They will remember who holds up the walnut and bronze at the end of the Stagg Bowl. 

[Ralph Turner]

I think that the committee had to drop into the secondary criteria to seed the brackets, when they were confronted with several undefeated (in D3) teams, such as Millsaps vs UMHB.  In some aspects, I think the move by MUC to the East was to honor the number of undefeated teams in the North Region.  Fortunately for someone, DePauw's win over Wabash in the Monon Bell game gave someone a home game that they were not going to get.

[Ralph Turner]

...

That being said, it really doesn't matter where a team is seeded and in what region.  As the saying goes, "to be the best, you need to beat the best."  So if every team in the playoffs has the goal of a national championship, you are going have to beat the best teams at some point along that road.  Most people will not remember (or care) if a particular team loses in the second round of the playoffs as opposed to the third round. They will remember who holds up the walnut and bronze at the end of the Stagg Bowl. 

We then must look more carefully at the playoff records by conferences with more scrutiny than might be considered.

Playoff history

Texas Sub-bracket in Post #29 and "Bracketgate"!

[Toby Taff]

Augie6 and Ryan,

I did start all this off by saying "just to be argumentative."  When UMHB lost I was pretty sure that would be a problem at some point but honestly, I said before the game if they were going to lose one that would be the one to lose.  My concern was more that the Cru came out on the other side healthy because at that point RB's were dropping like flies.  I didn't/don't have a problem with the seedings.  My only gripe is with the 1st round pairings, but that was no surprise to anyone.

[Augie6]

Augie6 and Ryan,

I did start all this off by saying "just to be argumentative."  When UMHB lost I was pretty sure that would be a problem at some point but honestly, I said before the game if they were going to lose one that would be the one to lose.  My concern was more that the Cru came out on the other side healthy because at that point RB's were dropping like flies.  I didn't/don't have a problem with the seedings.  My only gripe is with the 1st round pairings, but that was no surprise to anyone.

TT,

No problem, I was just being argumentative back...   Can't disagree with your gripe about the first round match-up, but that's the world we live in in D3.

[usee]

Perhaps it would be better to approach this from what you CAN prove than what you disagree with. I havn't seen anything close to a rational argument for what you are trying to say. Heck, I don't even know what you ARE trying to say.

I'm not sure why you are taking so much offense to my posts USee.  No need to start calling me irrational and turn this into something personal.

I have noticed that anytime anyone (not just me) suggests there is very little difference in overall quality between the North and the East once Mount Union is subtracted from the conversation, quite a backlash ensues.  Perhaps the onus should be on those who constantly drag down the East to prove their points, rather than survive on their own opinions.

So I'll try to write this as clearly as I can so you can finally understand my posts.  The committee clearly screwed up with their selections for top seeds in the North, because they all lost.  And because they all lost, there is no longer a suitable opponent capable of giving Mount Union a decent game in the semifinals.  In fact there was never a suitable potential semifinal opponent in the North bracket once Mount Union was exported.  If North Central or Trine was the real deal, they'd still be playing.  A Western or Southern power (within the 500 mile radius) should have been exported to the North to make up for the loss of Mount Union.

Its certainly not personal for me. I said your argument was irrational, not you.

And when you say there isn't a suitable semifinal opponent you are in fact saying something negative about the North and Wheaton. The Thunder won the North bracket and earned their trip to Alliance and I wonder where you will be if they play Mt Union closer than your team did? I don't know if they will but you have repeatedly put down Wheaton and the North teams. North Central is a very deserving North #1 because they won all their games in a tough conference and Cortland/Ithaca couldn't. Simple as that. I don't have a problem with your opinion but in football there is a big difference between 9-1 and 10-0 besides the fact its 10% better. You mention Milsaps could play MUC close?? why is that? they lost to WJ. based on your criteria the committee got that wrong too?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Dan,

What I object to in your argument is that you have gone out of your way to mock NCC as unworthy.  (I'm not an NCC guy [as an IWU fan I don't even like 'em much ], but I AM a CCIW guy!)  You point to Massey and Laz having them only 8 and 9, respectively, and have said several times they are not even CLOSE to being top 4.  Computer rankings may be tolerably good with a 25-game bball schedule; with a 10-game fball schedule (which includes virtually NO cross-regional games), they are basically useless.  You ARE, however, dissing the d3football.com poll, which had NCC at #2 entering the playoffs.

Whether you accept them or not, by the d3 criteria NCC was worthy of a #1 seed; no East Region team was.  Furthermore, by those who understand the criteria, all four #1s were predicted by nearly every observer who made a prediction.  Some of the seedings were borderline silly (Trine as a 2, UWW as a 5, etc.), but they were also almost inevitable by the criteria.

[DanPadavona]

Mr Ypsi,

I understand the committee's criteria, I just don't agree with it.  I too predicted NCC would get the #1 seed, so none of this was lost on me.  And you should know that I am not saying the CCIW is an inferior conference.  My gut feeling is it ranks very favorably with respect to the MAC, NJAC and E8.  The playoff history backs it up.

What I am saying is there seems to be a movement (and maybe I am wrong about this) to divide up the super powers as much as the 500 mile criteria will allow.  The West always produces a plethora of super powers, so whether you are a UWW or Williamette guy (or Linfield and SJ in past years), you know the West is going to give you a helluva survivor.

In the South, you had super power UMHB, along with very fast mover Millsaps and a Hardin-Simmons team which played UMHB to two close finishes on the road.

In the East, you had no super power.  So Mount Union was inserted.  Fine, problem solved.

In the North you had no super power, period.  That doesn't mean NCC isn't a great team, or that Wheaton isn't better than the East's best.  But do you honestly rank NCC, Wheaton, and Trine on the same level as UWW, UMHB, and MUC?  I know you don't. 

Obviously the committee was more focused on who was undefeated, and less focused on who were the true strongest programs in the country.  I understand that.  I don't agree with it, but I understand it. 

My argument is not a knock against the North.  You DO have a super power - Mount Union.  But they aren't in your bracket anymore.

[usee]

Mr Ypsi,

I understand the committee's criteria, I just don't agree with it.  I too predicted NCC would get the #1 seed, so none of this was lost on me.  And you should know that I am not saying the CCIW is an inferior conference.  My gut feeling is it ranks very favorably with respect to the MAC, NJAC and E8.  The playoff history backs it up.

What I am saying is there seems to be a movement (and maybe I am wrong about this) to divide up the super powers as much as the 500 mile criteria will allow.  The West always produces a plethora of super powers, so whether you are a UWW or Williamette guy (or Linfield and SJ in past years), you know the West is going to give you a helluva survivor.

In the South, you had super power UMHB, along with very fast mover Millsaps and a Hardin-Simmons team which played UMHB to two close finishes on the road.

In the East, you had no super power.  So Mount Union was inserted.  Fine, problem solved.

In the North you had no super power, period.  That doesn't mean NCC isn't a great team, or that Wheaton isn't better than the East's best.  But do you honestly rank NCC, Wheaton, and Trine on the same level as UWW, UMHB, and MUC?  I know you don't. 

Obviously the committee was more focused on who was undefeated, and less focused on who were the true strongest programs in the country.  I understand that.  I don't agree with it, but I understand it. 

My argument is not a knock against the North.  You DO have a super power - Mount Union.  But they aren't in your bracket anymore.

I definitely think NCC and Wheaton can compete with UMHB and UWW. I actually think cortland can too. I don't think this years version of either of those teams is as good as past seasons. NCC played UWW last year and it was a game into the end of the 3rd qtr when UWW pulled away. this years NCC team was considerably better than the team that lost at UWW last year so yes they could compete with any of the teams you mentioned. They lost to a Franklin team that spanked OAC #2 Otterbein (whose only loss was to MUC) at Otterbein. Wheaton then beat a very good Franklin team with arguably the nations best qb on the road. I saw Trine, Franklin, and NCC play this year and I can tell you they are as good as most playoff teams. I have been to Whitewater and seen them play St Johns and Wesley in the playoffs. I have been to Alliance and seen 5 MUC National championship teams. I watched the STJF/Ithaca game this year. I have a pretty good feel for the relative strength of the regions. I also trust Pat and Keith who have seen a lot of D3 ball and my thoughts are in line with theirs as well as many other long time D3 posters/fans.

[HScoach]

Before anyone looks down their nose too long at the NCC loss to Franklin, I think it's worth noting a post from Pat on the east region playoff thread:

I don't know why you would want the committee to be wary of North Central coming into the playoffs, though. They were the champion of a strong conference and they were undefeated. That's exactly the same resume that Cortland would've had if they had beaten Ithaca.

North Central was leading Franklin when NCC's starting quarterback got hurt. Any playoff team outside of Alliance is going to struggle against top competition when that happens. He didn't leave the game for good at that time but you have to wonder what might've been. The backup went 7-for-17 with two interceptions.

[DanPadavona]

Augie6/USee-

My apologies to both of you.  I did not intend for the debate to become personal.  I also did not intend to disparage Wheaton/NCC, and my argument should have been worded more diplomatically. 

There is a very good post on the Eastern Region board from Gordon Mann where he aligns teams by "power Tiers."  He elucidated far more clearly the point I was trying to get across, and it appears to have been well received.  It's definitely worth reading.  I may have him compose my points from now on.

Good luck to Wheaton with The Mount.

[usee]

Augie6/USee-

My apologies to both of you.  I did not intend for the debate to become personal.  I also did not intend to disparage Wheaton/NCC, and my argument should have been worded more diplomatically. 

There is a very good post on the Eastern Region board from Gordon Mann where he aligns teams by "power Tiers."  He elucidated far more clearly the point I was trying to get across, and it appears to have been well received.  It's definitely worth reading.  I may have him compose my points from now on.

Good luck to Wheaton with The Mount.

No worries. I like a good debate. I have great respect for the east (even through my north biased glasses). I read Gordon's post and I think he is on to something.

I'll go get Augie 6 out of the clinic today and show him the post. 

[Augie6]

Augie6/USee-

My apologies to both of you.  I did not intend for the debate to become personal.  I also did not intend to disparage Wheaton/NCC, and my argument should have been worded more diplomatically. 

There is a very good post on the Eastern Region board from Gordon Mann where he aligns teams by "power Tiers."  He elucidated far more clearly the point I was trying to get across, and it appears to have been well received.  It's definitely worth reading.  I may have him compose my points from now on.

Good luck to Wheaton with The Mount.

No worries. I like a good debate. I have great respect for the east (even through my north biased glasses). I read Gordon's post and I think he is on to something.

I'll go get Augie 6 out of the clinic today and show him the post. 

Actually, the doctors feel like I'm pretty screwed up and want to keep me under observation for a few more days. 

DP,

My apologies as well, if my argument got a little too personal.  I read Gordon Mann's post and think he did an excellent job with his power tiers.  And, for the record, I don't think the best of the north (other than MUC) is better than the best of the east.  I think they would be pretty comparable and the games would be good ones to watch.  I think USee and I got a little defensive because we perceived our conference was not being shown much respect.  Hopefully, someday, playoffs teams from either the east or north will figure out MUC and we'll be able to see some of those match-ups. 

[Kira & Jaxon's Dad]

You guys need a group hug!   

[ADL70]

What a pity the NCAA won't allow split kickoffs for the semis like they do for the former DIAA.  What possible reason could there be for not allowing the UMHB-UWW kickoff at 3pm EST (2 local)?  The stadium has lights so daylight wouldn't be an issue.  They've had a twilight-night Stagg Bowl and next week a brunch game. The NCAA really does suffer from intra-rectal-cranium.