The 2008 Playoffs Thread

[Ralph Turner]

Widener 1977  One of two teams from the "South" Region.

Widener 1981 One of two teams from the "South" Region.

West Georgia 1982 which beat the old Bishop College, from here in Dallas.

I think that you must give the South Region three crowns.

[usee]

Widener 1977  One of two teams from the "South" Region.

Widener 1981 One of two teams from the "South" Region.

West Georgia 1982 which beat the old Bishop College, from here in Dallas.

I think that you must give the South Region three crowns.

Sorry Ralph. I checked the current regions and Widener is listed as an East team. I didn't know they were South at one point. I am happy to give the South credit. This makes my North v East argument stronger as it takes 2 of the 6 away and gives the East 4 Staggs among only 2 teams.

[Ralph Turner]

Widener 1977  One of two teams from the "South" Region.

Widener 1981 One of two teams from the "South" Region.

West Georgia 1982 which beat the old Bishop College, from here in Dallas.

I think that you must give the South Region three crowns.

Sorry Ralph. I checked the current regions and Widener is listed as an East team. I didn't know they were South at one point. I am happy to give the South credit. This makes my North v East argument stronger as it takes 2 of the 6 away and gives the East 4 Staggs among only 2 teams.

No, thank you.  +1!

I hadn't given it any thought until you started counting by regions.   

Knowing the migration of schools from the NAIA to D3, I looked at who was selected to participate in those playoffs.

The MAC was moved to the East Evaluation Region in 2004. 

[K-Mack]

Keith, I think the basis for the frustration shared by my Eastern friend at Fisher is not so much based on who is/is not undefeated going into the playoffs, but the unfair expectations which seem to be placed upon the East to prove itself as worthy.

It seems to me the committee is placing Mount Union in the East because they don't feel a single team in the East is capable of being a Final 4 competitor. 

Stop right there.

You're barking up the wrong tree.

Its not about East strength or Mount Union or Final Fours.

It's about giving No. 1 seeds to the best teams possible.

If the four top teams in the playoffs were Willamette, UW-W, Occidental and Mary Hardin-Baylor, obviously they couldn't build an Eastern bracket around one of them, and somebody would be stuck being a No. 2 seed even if their resume seemed to reflect them as a No. 1. But given the opportunity to do so and -- this is key -- with the lack of a similarly deserving team providing another option -- they had to build the bracket this way, out of fairness to the entire field.

Think of it as the committee picking four deserving No. 1 seeds and then drawing 500-mile circles around them to make sure they can all bus in the first round.

(where is the link to that map?)

Maybe I should stop typing, as people seem to be getting more confused.

No region is "entitled" to a No. 1 seed.

You have to get your mind off of "East" brackets if you want to properly understand the way the committee is operating.

But if you want to play that game, who in the East deserved a No. 1 seed this year more than the four teams who got them? Should 10-0 North Central should have been a No. 2 seed so a team with a loss could be a No. 1? Millsaps? Willamette?

Like I said, if an NJAC and MAC team were each 10-0 and no south region team had a comparable resume, the same logic would lead to a "South" bracket built around one of them.

The way to "prove yourself" is to compile a resume worthy of a No. 1 seed, which your very own Cortland State seemed slated to do until Cortaca, and then a bracket is built around them.

BL: They win that game, this discussion isn't taking place.

[K-Mack]

I don't think there is anything unfair about MUC being exported to the East the past couple of years. 

Me neither. Well said. And if we were to be really precise about this, technically Mount Union was never "exported" to the "East Bracket." Rather, East Region playoff qualifiers have been "imported" into the "Mount Union Bracket" the past two years.

I blame myself for mis-describing it.

[Ralph Turner]

Link to D3 Football Map

[Ralph Turner]

I don't think there is anything unfair about MUC being exported to the East the past couple of years. 

Me neither. Well said. And if we were to be really precise about this, technically Mount Union was never "exported" to the "East Bracket." Rather, East Region playoff qualifiers have been "imported" into the "Mount Union Bracket" the past two years.

I blame myself for mis-describing it.

This site began calling the brackets by the #1 seed in 2004.

[DanPadavona]

Keith, No I don't think North Central deserved a #1 seed because they weren't even close to being one of the Top 4 teams in the country.  I'd have a hard time arguing for them to have been better than Top 10.  Massey's computer ratings puts them at #8, Laz at #9.  I don't swear by those numbers, but they seem pretty realistic to me.

I think maybe we are failing to see each other's points.  I have no problem with MUC being in the East, if a top WIAC team or another relevant power within 500 miles is imported to give the North a legitimate contender to match up with MUC in the semifinals.  What we have right now is pretty par for the course.  UMHB vs UWW in a titanic showdown, MUC vs Wheaton in a mismatch. 

USee - Some of the North teams you are counting for championships aren't even D3 anymore, particularly Dayton.  And when was the last time Wittenberg was a serious contender for a national championship?  Also, Widener's championships should be considered because they are currently considered Eastern.

[usee]

Keith, No I don't think North Central deserved a #1 seed because they weren't even close to being one of the Top 4 teams in the country.  I'd have a hard time arguing for them to have been better than Top 10.  Massey's computer ratings puts them at #8, Laz at #9.  I don't swear by those numbers, but they seem pretty realistic to me.

I think maybe we are failing to see each other's points.  I have no problem with MUC being in the East, if a top WIAC team or another relevant power within 500 miles is imported to give the North a legitimate contender to match up with MUC in the semifinals.  What we have right now is pretty par for the course.  UMHB vs UWW in a titanic showdown, MUC vs Wheaton in a mismatch. 

USee - Some of the North teams you are counting for championships aren't even D3 anymore, particularly Dayton.  And when was the last time Wittenberg was a serious contender for a national championship?  Also, Widener's championships should be considered because they are currently considered Eastern.

Your logic is burdensome to follow. You say don't count Dayton but count Widener; Wittenberg's success is too old but Ithaca's is usable; look back 2 decades for North but not more than 2 yrs for the East. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Perhaps it would be better to approach this from what you CAN prove than what you disagree with. I havn't seen anything close to a rational argument for what you are trying to say. Heck, I don't even know what you ARE trying to say.

For the record I think Keith is dead on right about the committee and they got it right this year too. If an east team wanted to be a #1 there is an easy solution, win your games.

[HScoach]

Keith, No I don't think North Central deserved a #1 seed because they weren't even close to being one of the Top 4 teams in the country.  I'd have a hard time arguing for them to have been better than Top 10.  Massey's computer ratings puts them at #8, Laz at #9.  I don't swear by those numbers, but they seem pretty realistic to me.

At the end of the regular season, if North Central wasn't #4 in the country, then who was?   And you can't use playoff results to make your point.  The playoff seeds are based on the regular season.  As such, no East team had a resume worth a #1 and North Central did.  You also have to factor in that NCC plays in a pretty good conference.  It isn't like they went 10-0 in the MWC.  They had as good a resume as Millsaps. 

OK, so let's assume NCC wasn't worthy.  So who in the East was worthy that should have kept Mount in the North?  Ithaca?  Cortland?  Each had a loss with the Cortland one being a blowout in week 10.  Not a great resume for earning a #1 seed. 

Everyone keeps using hindsight of the actual playoff outcomes to prove that NCC wasn't worthy, but I'll turn that around and prove the same thing about the East's powers. 
Ithaca lost to Curry in Round 1. 
Cortland's only playoff wins were against Plymouth State and Curry.  Hardly a tough run to the regional finals.   
Now how is that greatly different than what has transpired in the North?   

USee - Some of the North teams you are counting for championships aren't even D3 anymore, particularly Dayton.  And when was the last time Wittenberg was a serious contender for a national championship?  Also, Widener's championships should be considered because they are currently considered Eastern.

The last time Witt was a beast was back before they left the OAC for easier, greener pastures in the NCAC. 

And how does Dayton moving to 1-AA eliminate them from being part of the historical database? 




If you want to talk about ONLY the last 2 seasons, then you're right.  The North has been down.  Expand the discussion to the last 5-10 years, and you're wrong.

If the benchmark in this discussion in how someone matches up to Mount Union, then let's take a walk down memory lane:

1993:  Mount's toughest games were 2nd round vs Albion (north) and Rowan (east).  Albion had a 16-14 lead on Mount late in the 3rd quarter before losing 30-16 and Rowan had a 24-21 lead heading into the 4th before losing 34-24. 

1994:  Mount lost to Baldwin Wallace in the regular season 23-10, beat #1 ranked Allegheny (north) on the road in the 1st round and lost at eventual National Champion Albion (north) 34-33 in the 2nd round.  Didn't play an east team.

1995:  Mount's toughest game was a 20-17 loss to eventual National Champion UW-LaCrosse (west) in the semi-finals.  Next toughest was 41-37 win over Marietta.  Didn't play an east team.

1996:  Mount's toughest game was a 31-26 win over Allegheny (north) in 1st round.    Next best game was a 39-21 win over La Crosse (west) in the semi-finals.  Stagg was a 56-24 win over Rowan (east).

1997:  Mount's toughest game was a 34-30 win over Allegheny (north) where MUC intercepted a pass deep in their territory in the final seconds.  Only other team to stay within 30+ all season was Ohio Northern in losing 38-14.  Semi's were 54-7 over Simpson (west) and 61-12 over Lycoming (south).   Didn't play an east team.

1998:  easily Mount's toughest season.  3 come from behind wins in regular season over Ohio Northern (42-37), John Carroll (21-14) and Baldwin Wallace (30-21).  Playoff wins over Albion (north) 21-19 where Albion missed at 34 yd FG to win it on the last play, 21-19 over Wittenberg (north), 34-29 win over Trinity (south).  Easiest playoff win was 44-24 win over Rowan in the Stagg.

1999:  Mount's toughest game was a 24-17 OT loss to Rowan in the semi-finals.  Mount also went 3 OT's with John Carroll in the regular season winning 57-51.  1st round was a good one too as Augustana (north) rushed for 398 yards and controlled the clock for 48+ minutes. 

2000:  Mount's toughest game was 10-7 Stagg win over St. John's (west).  Next toughest would be 41-31 win over John Carroll in week 3 and 32-15 win over Wittenberg (north) in round 2.  Semi-finals were a white-washing of Widener (south) 70-30.  Didn't play an east team.

2001:  Mount's toughest game was a 33-30 win over John Carroll in week 3 where Mount had to convert 4th & long to keep the game winning drive alive that ultimately ended with a TD with 26 seconds left.  Next toughest was 30-27 Stagg win over Bridgewater (south) when Mount took a 17 point lead into the 4th and hung on.  Didn't play an east team.

2002:  Mount's toughest game was 28-21 win at Baldwin Wallace in week 2.  Next toughest was 38-22 win at Capital in week 7 and 35-16 win at John Carroll in week 6.  Best playoff game was 42-21 win over Wheaton (north).  Stagg was a 48-7 win over Trinity (south).  Didn't play a true east team, but beat John Carroll in semi's 57-19 after JCU won the east region.

2003:  only close game all season was a 24-6 loss to St John's (west) in the Stagg.  Next toughest was week 6 win over John Carroll 34-16.  Didn't play an east team.

2004:  toughest game was 34-31 loss to Mary Hardin Baylor (south) in the semi-finals.  Next toughest was 24-7 win over Baldwin Wallace in week 8.  Didn't play an east team.

2005:  toughest game was 34-31 win over Capital (OAC runner-up) in round 3.   Next toughest was 21-14 loss to Ohio Northern in week 7.  Semi-finals were 19-7 win over Rowan.  Stagg was 35-28 win over Whitewater where WWW scored with 0:02 left to pull within 7.

2006:  toughest game was 17-14 win over Capital (OAC runner-up) in round 3.  Next toughest was 35-16 win over Whitewater in Stagg.  3rd toughest was 26-14 win over St John Fisher (east) in semi-finals where Kmic ran for 371 yards.

2007:  only game not a 3 TD blowout was 31-21 loss to Whitewater in Stagg.  Beat Ithaca 42-18, New Jersey 59-7 and SJF 52-10 from the east and Bethel (west) 62-14 in the playoffs.

2008:  Cortland (east) was best team Mount has played to date, but MUC still has Wheaton (north) and Whitewater(west)/Mary Hardin Baylor (south) to go so, but I'd bet my left nut that either WWW or MHB is much better than Cortland.  Wheaton?  Maybe, maybe not, but we'll find out on Saturday.  For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that Mount somehow finds a way to survive this week and plays in the Stagg.



So, Mount has played at least one eastern region team in seven previous seasons (93, 96, 98, 99, 05, 06, 07 and 08) and only the 93 and 99 Rowan teams rank amongst the best teams that Mount faced those seasons.    In fact, the OAC runner-up has provided almost as much a challenge for Mount in the playoffs as the east has.

I'm not saying the East is an overly weak region, but all this talk the that the North isn't anything but Mount and the East is better than the North w/o Mount is crazy.  IMO, both regions are about the same, but the North has MUC which makes the rest of them look worse winning percentage-wise, but makes the region look tougher overall nationally.

[usee]

HSC,

great recap (although painful). 2 notes of no relevance: 1999 you say no east team but lost to Rowan and in 1995 Wheaton played at MUC and that game was 14-7 in the 4th quarter where Wheaton failed to score for the 4th time in the MUC red zone and Mount blew it open by soring 3x in the 4th on WR screens. Also, Carthage had 4 lead changes in their 2004 battle with Mount and it was 24-20 with 10 minutes to play before MUC scored 2x to win 38-20.

All good stuff

[Augie6]

Keith, No I don't think North Central deserved a #1 seed because they weren't even close to being one of the Top 4 teams in the country.  I'd have a hard time arguing for them to have been better than Top 10.  Massey's computer ratings puts them at #8, Laz at #9.  I don't swear by those numbers, but they seem pretty realistic to me.

At the end of the regular season, if North Central wasn't #4 in the country, then who was?   And you can't use playoff results to make your point.  The playoff seeds are based on the regular season.  As such, no East team had a resume worth a #1 and North Central did.  You also have to factor in that NCC plays in a pretty good conference.  It isn't like they went 10-0 in the MWC.  They had as good a resume as Millsaps. 

OK, so let's assume NCC wasn't worthy.  So who in the East was worthy that should have kept Mount in the North?  Ithaca?  Cortland?  Each had a loss with the Cortland one being a blowout in week 10.  Not a great resume for earning a #1 seed. 

Everyone keeps using hindsight of the actual playoff outcomes to prove that NCC wasn't worthy, but I'll turn that around and prove the same thing about the East's powers. 
Ithaca lost to Curry in Round 1. 
Cortland's only playoff wins were against Plymouth State and Curry.  Hardly a tough run to the regional finals.   
Now how is that greatly different than what has transpired in the North?   

HSC and USee,

Great info in your posts.  Couldn't agree more. 

DP,

Just trying to understand how you can say with such certainty that NCC wasn't a top 4 team in the country.  Have you actually seen NCC play this year or are you basing your opinion solely on some computer rankings?  If you are basing your opinion on computer rankings, how many DIII teams have you actually seen this year that would give you a basis to determine that those rankings "seem pretty realistic"?  NCC was the undefeated champion of the CCIW, a conference that has represented itself well over the years on a national basis and regularly gets two teams into the NCAA playoffs.  During the regular season, they decisively beat a Wheaton team on the road, who, at the time, was ranked in the top 5 in the country (and now Wheaton is one of the four teams still standing in the playoffs).  Let's also not forget that the CCIW had some other pretty good teams this year (Augie 7-3, Elmhurst 7-3 and IWU, who finished 5th in the conf, at 6-4).  Sounds like some pretty good competition to justify a high national ranking, doesn't it?

Without seeing CS, Ithaca or any East region team play this year, I couldn't say if they would beat an NCC or Wheaton.  My guess is that those games would be pretty close.  But your opinion that there are no strong north teams outside of MUC that are deserving of a high national ranking just doesn't hold up to the facts that HSC and USee have detailed.

[retagent]

Not being a Wheaton backer does not prevent me from pointing out to DanP that in 2003 MUC vs SJU was also a mismatch.

[Ralph Turner]

Great summary hscoach...

Historical context for the 2002 MUC Trinity Stagg Bowl...

The Trinity starting QB was suspended from the Stagg Bowl because of disciplinary matters related to a celebratory party on the Riverwalk.

[HScoach]

Great summary hscoach...

Historical context for the 2002 MUC Trinity Stagg Bowl...

The Trinity starting QB was suspended from the Stagg Bowl because of disciplinary matters related to a celebratory party on the Riverwalk.

Correct.  But unless Roy could have played defense too, it wouldn't have mattered.  Trinity had no answer for Dan Pugh and the Mount running game.