WBB: NESCAC

[Title9Fan]

My theory is that teams in this part of the country don't have enough depth in terms of big, physical players to beat the teams outside of this region at the Final Four....  

As it applies to Amherst, Leyman and Atanga McCormick certainly have the skill set I'm referring to.  But did it hurt Amherst that there wasn't a third or fourth forward on the team that did?  Did Leyman and Atanga McCormick wear down because Wash U could rotate three or four forwards throughout the game?

Each of these comments is right on the money.  McCormick remember is from Loyola in Chicago (tougher game style in high school and AAU regional as well as national circuit than New England players are used to) although she had an abbreviated senior year there.  But to your bigger point, depth is key.

[Title9Fan]

 "Seniors" bring experience and therefore depth....giving that the talent level is there.  

Experience does not equate to depth; they're two different things.  Depth is how many players can contribute at a significant level (be an "impact" player) coming off the bench.  Seniors don't automatically equate to either one.   There are seniors who haven't played much in earlier years; many who have no "big game" experience at all; and some who are primarily practice players.

[gordonmann]

Interesting thoughts on recruiting, Title9Fan.  Glad to have your perspective.

Would you consider the players who played high school ball at New England prep schools to be local, even if their families are from other parts of the country?  My first thought is yes since that's where they've developed their skills, but curious to hear your thoughts.

[WUPHF]

McCormick remember is from Loyola in Chicago (tougher game style in high school and AAU regional as well as national circuit than New England players are used to) although she had an abbreviated senior year there. 

It is true that the best Chicago-area schools play the toughest basketball around.  As tough as any other region.

[senatorfrost]

  NESCAC coaches have very strict rules when it comes to recruiting. Probably stricter than any other conference. However, I say probably since I can't remember exactly what those rules are.
  A few words about Wash U and their 6 coaches. Here in the EAst, I have been almost shocked upon learning just how FAR the local UAA schools (Deis and Roch)will go for basketball. Not only academically but also with the $$. Financial aid rules can be bent if one is so inclined and the UAA round here is certainly so inclined. I was talking with a UAA parent two years ago and they said that the Limbo is a way of life in UAA schools when it comes to basketball.
  Now before people get hot and bothered let me say that that there is a perfectly good and logical reason for things to be that way. The UAA schools are much bigger. Even Deis has 3200 (approx) undergrads. Wash U has at least 6000+ That means that they can take a few low scores because they have so many more people to equal things out so to speak.
   Also Wash U for example doesn't have hockey or lacrosse. Those two helmeted sports take up a few Tips here and there. Deis has no Lacrosse, hockey or football.That certainly helps the basketball team. Thus these big places (relatively speaking) that have fewer helmeted sports and bigger enrollments have a huge advantage over most NESCAC schools when it comes to basketball.
  While I'm here I'd like to say that I thought what ALex Hoover did to Caroline Stedman was pretty brutal to put it mildly. Obviously the game was more important than the health and safety of an opponent, or in this case, perhaps the word 'Enemy' may be more accurate. Stedman was no doubt stunned and shaken by the cheap shot and it's for certain it didn't help her at the line. I would not have been at all surprised if she had been badly hurt-luck was with her.
  However, all that counts is winning in some places and student athletes will do what they're told and taught. So congratulations coach Fahey et. al. I wonder which coach is in charge of brutal fouls?
  This is simply my opinion. Maybe D3 Women's hoops is no different than a Calipari team and there are probably many people who think the whole thing was no big deal.

[ac08]

I rarely post on the womens' side of the forum, but I just wanted to congratulate Amherst for representing the NESCAC so well all year long.

[Maine 1]

Not sure the final D3 hoops .com pole as it relates to the order of the NESCAC teams makes much sense. Particularly between Colby and Bowdoin. Colby was 2-1 against Bowdoin during the season (losing in December, and then winning at Bowdoin in January, and again in the NESCAC semis at Amherst).  Colby clearly was a better team at the end of the season.  Colby lost a double overtime game to Babson (an elite 8 team) in the NCAA, and clearly should be ranked ahead of Bowdoin, and probably ahead of Williams (Williams lost 8 games, including a game to Colby at Williams).

The voters should consider the entire season, and not reputation.

[Title9Fan]

Interesting thoughts on recruiting, Title9Fan.  Glad to have your perspective.

Would you consider the players who played high school ball at New England prep schools to be local, even if their families are from other parts of the country?  My first thought is yes since that's where they've developed their skills, but curious to hear your thoughts.

Absolutely - yes.

[Title9Fan]

Not sure the final D3 hoops .com pole as it relates to the order of the NESCAC teams makes much sense. Particularly between Colby and Bowdoin. Colby was 2-1 against Bowdoin during the season (losing in December, and then winning at Bowdoin in January, and again in the NESCAC semis at Amherst).  Colby clearly was a better team at the end of the season.  Colby lost a double overtime game to Babson (an elite 8 team) in the NCAA, and clearly should be ranked ahead of Bowdoin, and probably ahead of Williams (Williams lost 8 games, including a game to Colby at Williams).

The voters should consider the entire season, and not reputation.

I have to agree with you - Colby belongs on top of the two in the final ranking.  As I've noted before, the entire team improved significantly throughout the season and that's almost always a relfection on the coaching performance.  In a big game, I'd put Gear-McBride's game coaching ability up against Gromacki's before any other NESCAC coach.  Her team is still young with a huge upside.  It's also balanced.   There's no confusion in her roster about who is doing what.   She has five positions and is building depth at each one.  They proved they could learn and improve and the improvement wasn't spotty - it was consiistent throughout the season. That's a big deal.  

Bowdoin on the other hand seems to be running on Pemper's fumes and with the graduation of seniors Rubega and Hynes I wonder about the new coach's talent and ability at a competetive D3 level (as opposed to Swarthmore) because it was a hot mess this year.  The SOS rating is relative if you want to be successful outside of the NESCAC region, which is the discussion that's been going on lately.  If you can't hold a candle to Amherst, nor beat Colby at the end of the season, you will never stand a chance against George Fox or IW, let alone Wash U.  Rochester btw was lucky.  Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, haha.  Rochester played very sloppy ball against Christopher Newport.   In the next round, it was Kean's game to loose (which it did).  Bowdoin also had every opportunity to beat Kean.  It was  a coach's loss IMO.  

Bates was underpowered in too many positions, but you have to give them props for hitting thier stride at the right point in the season.  

Back to your point, Maine1:  Not sure why Colby didn't get the respect it deserved.    

[Title9Fan]

 NESCAC coaches have very strict rules when it comes to recruiting. Probably stricter than any other conference. However, I say probably since I can't remember exactly what those rules are.

Can anyone elaborate? 

[Title9Fan]

While I'm here I'd like to say that I thought what ALex Hoover did to Caroline Stedman was pretty brutal to put it mildly. Obviously the game was more important than the health and safety of an opponent, or in this case, perhaps the word 'Enemy' may be more accurate. Stedman was no doubt stunned and shaken by the cheap shot and it's for certain it didn't help her at the line. I would not have been at all surprised if she had been badly hurt-luck was with her.
  However, all that counts is winning in some places and student athletes will do what they're told and taught. So congratulations coach Fahey et. al. I wonder which coach is in charge of brutal fouls?
  This is simply my opinion. Maybe D3 Women's hoops is no different than a Calipari team and there are probably many people who think the whole thing was no big deal.

I didn't see the game, Senator but that's precisely what I meant when I've referred to the Midwest as a tougher region in its style of play.  I'm sorry to hear about the play you mentioned.  

It's not about WashU per se.  It's a regional style.   When I hear people complain in New England about a game being rough I am always shocked.  I haven't seen a rough game here - ever.  

Griner for example, from Baylor who got into a lot of trouble for thowing a player to the ground was fouled hard for the entire game.  People only saw video bytes of the exact pay-back.  Griner had been seriously pushed on -- and pulled -- and hooked -- and fouled for most of the game before she threw the fouling player to the ground.  Rewind and you'll see refs not doing thier jobs.  It wasn't that they didn't see it.  It was that they ignored it.  I'm not saying Griner was right - but justified?  Probably.  Pain makes people react and she's incredibly strong.  The refs blew it by not calling the game clean from the beginning.  What about some penalties for them?

A lot of WBB games in the midwest,  at every level, would look like third-degree assault to NESCAC fans.  It's a different game from one region to the next.  I like the NESCAC "finesse" style of game much better myself, but the differences mean coaches have to plan for success if they want to go deep into the tournament outside of their region (you can't turn high school guards into college centers unless you have Shaq as an assistant coach, for example) and Gromacki is doing more of it every year.      

Again, Amherst's advantage is that its coach understands all of this and it will adapt.
They'll win a national title if Gromacki stays.  It's not "if" - it's "when".  

One of the other stengths Gromacki has in the play-offs outside of his region is that he lets the refs knows he's going to take care of his players and keep them safe.  It's a contact game, which means silence is not golden.  Refs are impossible to predict.  So you better, as a coach, be effective and competent in talking to the refs.

[sumfun]

I actually liked the more physical play in the midwest, except for the clothesline of Stedman and body tackle from hehind  of McCormick at end of Amherst/Wash U game.  Leyman and McCormick could actually play the physical game that they both learned in the midwest and not get called for silly touch fouls.

When it comes to NESCAC recruiting, they have very limited travel/recruiting budgets.  You don't see NESCAC coaches at the showcase tourneys in the midwest or southeast, nor do you see them at AAU national tourneys.  You do see the UAA coaches at those tournaments.  NESCAC coaches rely on what they can see in the Northeast and other kids that contact the coach due to the school's reputation, and of course word of mouth from interested alums and followers of the program.

[Title9Fan]

Nothing wrong with NESCAC's obssession with in-region games and local rivals.  But that's the answer to the question of why historically it doesn't go deep into the tournament.

It's also why serious fans of women's basketball in the NE are feeling grateful to Amherst.  They worked their way outside of the box and liked it!

[WUPHF]

 NESCAC coaches have very strict rules when it comes to recruiting. Probably stricter than any other conference. However, I say probably since I can't remember exactly what those rules are.
  A few words about Wash U and their 6 coaches. Here in the EAst, I have been almost shocked upon learning just how FAR the local UAA schools (Deis and Roch)will go for basketball. Not only academically but also with the $$. Financial aid rules can be bent if one is so inclined and the UAA round here is certainly so inclined. I was talking with a UAA parent two years ago and they said that the Limbo is a way of life in UAA schools when it comes to basketball.
  Now before people get hot and bothered let me say that that there is a perfectly good and logical reason for things to be that way. The UAA schools are much bigger. Even Deis has 3200 (approx) undergrads. Wash U has at least 6000+ That means that they can take a few low scores because they have so many more people to equal things out so to speak.
   Also Wash U for example doesn't have hockey or lacrosse. Those two helmeted sports take up a few Tips here and there. Deis has no Lacrosse, hockey or football.That certainly helps the basketball team. Thus these big places (relatively speaking) that have fewer helmeted sports and bigger enrollments have a huge advantage over most NESCAC schools when it comes to basketball.
  While I'm here I'd like to say that I thought what ALex Hoover did to Caroline Stedman was pretty brutal to put it mildly. Obviously the game was more important than the health and safety of an opponent, or in this case, perhaps the word 'Enemy' may be more accurate. Stedman was no doubt stunned and shaken by the cheap shot and it's for certain it didn't help her at the line. I would not have been at all surprised if she had been badly hurt-luck was with her.
  However, all that counts is winning in some places and student athletes will do what they're told and taught. So congratulations coach Fahey et. al. I wonder which coach is in charge of brutal fouls?
  This is simply my opinion. Maybe D3 Women's hoops is no different than a Calipari team and there are probably many people who think the whole thing was no big deal.

My favorite part is the I talked to a parent, so I have proof of everything.

[Title9Fan]

    However, all that counts is winning in some places and student athletes will do what they're told and taught. So congratulations coach Fahey et. al. I wonder which coach is in charge of brutal fouls?

That's certainly true in general but not about Wash U.  Which isn't to say the play didn't happen the way you describe.  You just can't roll it up to those wild statements with any credibility.  It's an outstanding school with a coach who has a good reputation - is both liked and respected - and yes, wins big games.   I'm going to have to watch the archived game to see the play, but Wash U is a great program; one that doesn't deserve to be taken down based on one play.