WBB: NESCAC

[sumfun]

Bowdoin could give Babson a good game because they beat Colby who also has very good post players.  I still expect Babson to win this game.  Muhlenberg seems to be peaking at the right time.  I think Amherst has more players that play significant minutes so I'd guess they are a bit deeper.  Amherst also has played their best the last few weeks.  Will be interesting to see if Mulenberg can handle Amherst's defense.  Great games in all sections this weekend. 

[NE Hoop Guy]

The Babson Bowdoin game is going to be a very good game as the teams do not match up at all, so it will be interesting.  Clearly most of the "experts" are expecting a clear Bowdoin victory.  Despite being ranked #4 in the country,  Babson has only been ranked #5 regionally. No respect from NCAA, the committee or D3Hoops for that matter.   Pat Coleman insulted them on Hoopsville selection show.

Today we finally see the final regional rankings, and they STAYED at 5.  Williams and Colby lost games, and held their position AGAIN.  As we have now seen they both have exited early from the NCAA's.   

Despite all this lack or respect all Babson does is win.  They are the only team to have made the sweet 16 two consecutive years without playing a home game in the tournament.  I cant wait to hear Pat Coleman explain why this was an easy and expected feat by a not very good team.  On Hoopsville Pat explanined last year they really did not beat anyone in the NCAA run to the elite 8.  I guess he considers lasts year's Colby team, playing at home, with a star senior player they did not have this year, not a good team.  Pat gives them no credit for an undefeated season because they play in an easy conference.  I think he should count how many other teams are undefeated in easy conferences.  He can count on hand that is missing a few fingers.

Further, they have made the sweet 16 this year with one of their top players out.  They were not beat down by the NCAA sending an undefeated team 8 hours west to play two very good teams, on in front of a packed house of home fans. Resilient if nothing else.

They do probably have the best frontcourt in D3.  The guard play is better than last year.  They may not win, but I think you can be sure it will not be for a lack of effort.  I am  looking forward to the game. 

[Pat Coleman]

Denison is a good example of a team that ran the table in an easy conference, got a much tougher draw than Babson, and got bounced.

I find it amusing that you say in consecutive sentences that Babson is ranked highly in the country but disrespected by D3hoops. Where does D3hoops rank Babson?

If you consider unranked Geneseo and unranked Medaille to be good teams, wait until Babson plays a ranked team. Babson starts the tournament with three unranked teams. They should be thankful they got sent out of the Northeast for the first weekend.

Just my two cents. Welcome to the board.

[Maine 1]

I do believe that Babson has been underrated all year.  Their three post players are outstanding.   As it relates to last year's victory over Colby, my view on that is that if those two teams played 10 teams, last year's Colby team would win 8 of those games.   However, Babson's post players dominated Colby's post players, and that was the difference in the game.  Babson then went on to give Amherst a strong game.

I think Babson's post group is far better than Colby's this season.  I don't see Bowdoin shutting down Babson's big three.  I would expect Babson to beat Bowdoin.  However, I don't see them getting by Amherst

[NE Hoop Guy]

Pat, I appreciate your taking the time to answer, despite it being logically flawed.
When I say Babson is disrespected by D3Hoops, I am talking mainly about you particularly as the face of D3 hoops, not the poll.  The poll is a panel of people who are participants with D3Hoops, but most of them are not employees or contractors or associated with D3Hoops in any way except being poll voters. So the use the poll as an indicator of D3Hoops respect is really disingenuous. 

You are again quick to diminish Babson's competitors overall, but do not address my Colby point from last year.   You want to suggest again this year they beat weak competition, because it is "unranked".  Using your own stated logic you are contradicting yourself.  The two teams Babson beat last week may be unranked by D3Hoops, but they are ranked #1 and #3 in their region respectively.  So they are ranked by the rankings you often seem to use as Bible truth and the rankings that are used to get into the tournament.  I said yesterday Babson is the only team that is in the sweet 16 two years in a row with all road games.  That does not happen twice in a row, simply by the luck of the draw no matter how many times you try to say it does.   Babson is the only team that has done it, that is not luck. How many teams are in the sweet 16 this year having beat teams ranked #1 and #3 in their region on the road?   I have not checked but I bet zero.

It is all perspective, and anything can happen on any given night.  The point is this team is very good as are Bowdoin, Geneseo, Medaille and others, yet you are going out of your way to suggest they are somehow undeserving.  Even to the point of saying they were "lucky" to go out of region?? That is crazy.  No matter how good you are, traveling 8 hours to play good teams at their house or in their backyard is not "lucky".  Last year they did it the other way, they stayed in region, beat a ranked NESCAC team at their place, and that is still not good enough for you.

You cant have it both ways.  In fact if you use your logic, Amherst was not very good last year.  They did not beat a ranked team, nor did they win a game on the road during the tournament.  As soon as they left Amherst, and met a ranked team they lost.  If they make the final four this year and do not play Babson, they will have again made it with no road games and no ranked opponents....They must not be that good right?  An easy road to the final four?

I am not sure what your problem really is, but you are embarrassing yourself in this instance and unfairly diminishing the accomplishments of student athletes to prove a point that is not provable.

[sumfun]

When  Amherst played E. Conn earlier in the year they were in top 25, as was Williams, Bowdoin, Tufts and Colby.  Kean was a great test on the road as they were #4 at the time.  The NESCAC, according to Massey Ratings, is currently 4th, often has been second toughest conference in the country. 

Massey has Medaille at #122 and Geneseo at #64, so I can see what Pat was saying.  That's not to say that Amherst didn't have a favorable draw also with Husson at #282 and E. Conn at #77. 

As for the Colby post players, they are VERY talented players that Bowdoin handled with not much problem.  What Colby lacked this year was an experienced coach.  Anyone who has coached any sport, if being honest, will say the learning curve is steep in the first few years. 

Don't take the comments personally about Babson.  You'll find out over the years that the Northeast doesn't get much respect overall.  Until a team wins a National Championship, it's probably deserved.  Keep smiling and let the girls figure it out on the floor. This weekend will be much closer in all games as the teams have very similar season stats.

[gordonmann]

I'm probably stepping on a land mine, but I don't see how the Northeast region doesn't get much respect overall.  

They routinely have multiple teams ranked in the Top 25 and the majority of the voters in those polls (whether ours or the coaches) are from outside Northeast.  They routinely get multiple at-large teams in the NCAA tournament, which means that national organization respects them, whether for quantitative reasons, qualitative reasons or both.  The Northeast teams lead our front page story a lot, partly because they are quality programs that generate some interest (or at least recognition) outside the region.  

I can't comment on Pat's remarks about Babson since I don't know what they were.  I've personally said that I won't pick a Northeast (or Mid Atlantic, Atlantic or East) team to win the national championship until I see them do it.  But that doesn't mean I don't respect them.  The best teams in the Northeast are definitely among the nation's best annually.  They just aren't the absolute best in the last 10 years or so.

To put it differently, which region gets more respect than the Northeast?  What's the basis for comparison?

[sumfun]

No land mines.  Agree totally...just waiting to see which team can break through for the ultimate prize.

[gordonmann]

Okay, understood.

[amh63]

I had posted earlier that I would make comments wrt the topic you have brought up here, Gordonmann.  I will post after Amherst  advances to the Final 4, as I have previously so stated.   In particular, if you review an earlier Hoopsville  broadcast when Dave or Pat was discussing the selection of the brackets with one of the selection committee members.....from a school in the PA area, if I recall, the topic of what region produces the best teams for the championship was brought up.

[Pat Coleman]

When I say Babson is disrespected by D3Hoops, I am talking mainly about you particularly as the face of D3 hoops, not the poll.

Then say that, rather than what you said.

... they are ranked #1 and #3 in their region respectively. So they are ranked by the rankings you often seem to use as Bible truth

No way is that true. I never rely on the NCAA's regional rankings as the bible truth on anything, except ...

... and the rankings that are used to get into the tournament.

... that they are the rankings used to get into the tournament. By that point we have no choice but to reference them because the NCAA doesn't care what our voters think. Even though we are right more often than they are. Babson proved that right last week, in fact!

I said yesterday Babson is the only team that is in the sweet 16 two years in a row with all road games.  That does not happen twice in a row, simply by the luck of the draw no matter how many times you try to say it does.   Babson is the only team that has done it, that is not luck. How many teams are in the sweet 16 this year having beat teams ranked #1 and #3 in their region on the road?   I have not checked but I bet zero.

Probably right. How good is the East Region, exactly? It's less than half the size of the Northeast, for example. It's a lot easier to get into the top three of the East than the top three of the Northeast.

The point is this team is very good as are Bowdoin, Geneseo, Medaille and others, yet you are going out of your way to suggest they are somehow undeserving.

Of what, a top five national ranking? Yes. But they're still good. They're just not in the top 1.2 percent of Division III teams.

Even to the point of saying they were "lucky" to go out of region?? That is crazy.  No matter how good you are, traveling 8 hours to play good teams at their house or in their backyard is not "lucky".  Last year they did it the other way, they stayed in region, beat a ranked NESCAC team at their place, and that is still not good enough for you.

More about Colby below. I think you missed something I said. And yes, they were lucky to get the teams ranked 122 and 64 which were sitting in the East bracket as opposed to better ranked teams in the Northeast. If you can't win away from a familiar gym you ain't winning the national title, unless you're lucky enough to be hosting all the way through.

nor did they win a game on the road during the tournament.

Just for the record, this is your logic, not mine. You're the one talking about winning games on the road during the tournament, not me.

If they make the final four this year and do not play Babson, they will have again made it with no road games and no ranked opponents....They must not be that good right?  An easy road to the final four?

Depends on who they lose to, when and how.

I am not sure what your problem really is, but you are embarrassing yourself in this instance and unfairly diminishing the accomplishments of student athletes to prove a point that is not provable.

It's provable in the tournament. We'll see.

On Colby 2009-10, I saw that point, it was pointed out to me on the show, and I corrected myself on the show that very night. Maybe you missed that? But it doesn't speak to Babson 2010-11. That game was not played this season.

[gordonmann]

In particular, if you review an earlier Hoopsville  broadcast when Dave or Pat was discussing the selection of the brackets with one of the selection committee members.....from a school in the PA area, if I recall, the topic of what region produces the best teams for the championship was brought up.

Okay.  I said that the Central region produces the best teams for championships with the Great Lakes coming in second.  I still feel that's true.  It's hard to argue with what they've done over the last 15 years.

2010: Washington U (Central)
2009: George Fox (West)
2008: Howard Payne (South)
2007: DePauw (Great Lakes)
2006: Hope (Great Lakes)
2005: Millikin (Central)
2004: Wilmington (Great Lakes)
2003: Trinity, Texas (South)
2002: UW-Stevens Point (Central)
2001: Washington U (Central)
2000: Washington U (Central)
1999: Washington U (Central)
1998: Washington U (Central)
1997: New York U (East)
1996: UW-Oshkosh (Central)

That doesn't I don't respect mean Amherst, Babson, Bowdoin, Eastern Connecticut, Southern Maine or any other strong New England program.

[Wydown Blvd.]

Just as an fyi.

Bowdoin's record on the d3hoops 2011 sectionals at a glance page is incorrect. They are 24-5 not 27-1

[Mr. Ypsi]

Just as an fyi.

Bowdoin's record on the d3hoops 2011 sectionals at a glance page is incorrect. They are 24-5 not 27-1

They blew it on IWU also - 'signature win: Lewis & Clark x2'.  That, of course, was George Fox; IWU and L&C never played.  Since the sectional is at UWSP, I suppose the relevant signature win would be winning AT UWSP (though winning AT Kean is probably just as impressive).

The editing was not up to Pat's usual standards.  (I'm gonna guess he did not personally edit it.)

[deiscanton]

Just as an fyi.

Bowdoin's record on the d3hoops 2011 sectionals at a glance page is incorrect. They are 24-5 not 27-1

They blew it on IWU also - 'signature win: Lewis & Clark x2'.  That, of course, was George Fox; IWU and L&C never played.  Since the sectional is at UWSP, I suppose the relevant signature win would be winning AT UWSP (though winning AT Kean is probably just as impressive).

The editing was not up to Pat's usual standards.  (I'm gonna guess he did not personally edit it.)

Amherst's record is 28-1 going into Friday's sectional, not 28-2.

Amherst women got in to the NCAAs by clinching the NESCAC automatic bid-- it incorrectly states that Amherst got in as a Pool C bid.