WBB: NESCAC

[kate]

Smile and please resume posting, NESCAC folks!  Practice starts in three weeks - hoping everyone up north has a productive, healthy & fun season!!!

[amh63]

Kate,    I think 3 weeks is a little early for the teams in our conference.  I do not expect practices to start any earlier than 6 weeks.  The conference welcomes Hamilton into the mix this year.  It impacts the schedules and could affect the start of practices....since Hamilton's Fall sports started earlier than the other conference schools.

[NH NESCAC Fan]

I don't know about everyone else, but Amherst starts practice on November 1.

[amh63]

Thanks NHNESCAC Fan......Your date confirms data I have since acquired wrt basketball start practice dates in the conference.  Hamilton's entrance into WBB and MBB has shifted the scheduling of games a bit.  My earlier post was based on the fact that the start of Fall sports was so dependent on the start of school and FY orientation.  Hamilton's fall sports started a week earlier and I believe it was an carry over from their previous school calenders ...based in part to being a part of another sports conference.  Anyway, I am awaiting the start of practice....since I will get info wrt to new recruits and maybe info on a new assistant coach for Amherst WBB.

[amh63]

The D3hoops pre-season picks for players is out.  IMO, it like many preseason list are more an indication of the pickers than the picks.  Who are the pickers for the NE region inputs?...Pat C.  I find that the publish picks are somewhat a joke for the NE region.
Babson has a 1st team player and also a 4th team player....both front court players.  Amherst played Babson in the elite 8 game last year and won easily by 18 points.  Sarah Collins, the 4th team center on the list, was not a starter for Babson in that game.  She played 18 minutes, had 4 rebounds and 5 points!  With Collins and N..Wurdeman, the 1st team forward, Babson was outrebounded by Amherst 41-21.  One of Amherst's guards had 1 less rebound (7-8) and just as many points in less time on the floor as Wurdeman.  Maybe one should pick the teams by players vice positions.  There should be some other returning front court players in NE or elsewhere.  There are two front court players on the Amherst team that return that played more valuable roles during the season than Collins' played for Babson.
Check the records and we can discuss this more. 

[LORENZO123]

We're off to a great start so early in the season. My guess is that the picks were based on the entire season, not just the Babson - Amherst game. Collins played with a broken right (shooting) hand in a cast against Amherst. Babson beat Bowdoin in OT, 61 - 58 the night before. Collins, with her shooting hand still in a cast, had 10 points, 9 boards and 3 blocks. She made two clutch free throws shooting lefty in OT; 2 for 2 free throws for the night, left handed. She missed the previous 6 games due to her injury. Not a bad come back. Her numbers prior to the injury were very respectable.

Wurdeman's record speaks for itself.

[gordonmann]

Amh63:

I'm the person primarily responsible for assembling Preseason All-American picks. So you can point your complaints and criticisms toward me.

That doesn't mean the picks are just my thoughts. We start with the postseason All-Americans from last year, unless someone else has returned from injury to knock them off the list. So Wurdeman's selection shouldn't be a surprise since she was 2nd team All-American last year.

Then I look at the All-Region picks (which feed into the All-American selections), which are made by sports information directors and media members in each region.  I look at players who were first team all-region without being All-Americans. That isn't a guarantee that someone will make the All-Americans but it helps identify strong candidates.

Then I do the same thing with second team All-Region picks, which is where Sarah comes in.  She may not have impressed you in that game, but she averaged 15 points and nine rebounds and added 89 blocks (first on the team) and 59 steals from a center position.  Plus, as Lorenzo pointed out, she had big games at other points.

I also factor in team success, strength of conference and input I've culled from coaches, media, etc.

The challenge for this year's team is that a lot of All-Americans and All-Region selections graduated.  Notice how many of the All-Region picks in New England graduated.

http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/all-region/2010-11/northeast-women

There are only three returning players who were first or second team all-region and all three are on our All-American list. 

Actually, if you look just at statistics, there's one player who apparently doesn't belong on the Preseason All-American list because her numbers are much lower: Caroline Stedman.  But she took over the Final Four games at pivotal moments, is an excellent player and shouldn't be penalized because her team is so outstanding that she doesn't play as many minutes. She's the best returning player on the best team and a key contributor to last year's title winner. So I made her a second team All-American despite her not appearing on last year's list at all.

It's not a perfect system and I'm open to recommendations on how to improve it. 

[amh63]

Gordonmann.....Thanks for the response and being open with your thought process.  You have a "big" job and the effort requires stats, etc. and then some particular consideration for Amherst's lone player C. Stedmann....based on her late season efforts.  Carole indeed played well in the post season as she was the MVP.  She comes up big in the critical/"big" games against the toughest talented teams.  Thank you for considering her efforts.  Stedmann "blossomed" so to speak in the year before when Daigneault was injured late in the season (Daigneault was selected an All-American the year before...I believe)  Carole picked up her play when Daigneault was hurt and in the late season critical games and in the Final Four she shined....though, tired she did miss her foul shots that let Wash. U beat Amherst in OT.  Last season, Carole's numbers were down due to her own injuries and adjustments,IMO, to the return of Daigneault as a starter.
Anyway, what I will point out is a method that will help make the selection, again IMO, better.  It takes more analyses of data and teams, and therefore time which you may not have.  I believe the best players can be selected by looking at the "best" teams of the previous seasons and look at the critical games they played  in conference tourneys and in the post season.  By looking at these games against other tournament teams, you can select returning players that produced vital minutes for their teams.  Players that blossomed late in the season, etc.
I will point out a case in point on the Amherst team.  Lem Atanga McCormick is a returning forward for Amherst.  She has often  contributed vital/critical efforts against tough opponents in critical and post season games....while playing less than 20 minutes/game.  Her "numbers" are therefore not great for a talented team.  When Daigneault was hurt in her Jr. year, Lem became a starter but her minutes were limited (the reason was not her play or her attitude on the team).  In the Final Four game against Wash. U two years ago,  Lem played her most minutes and scored 13 points and had 10 rebounds in the loss.  The only other player in the game with a double double was All American Jamie McFarlin who had more minutes.  Lem or Atanga as she is called, played well in the Babson vs. Amherst game that year in the post season.  Collins, a starter in the game had 8 points and 5 rebounds in 31 minutes.  McCormick had 15 points and 2 rebounds in 27 minutes.  Lem can play inside and shoot the 3 from outside  to bring the opponent's big players out from under the boards.  That year in the critical game against Williams in the post season, Lem had 16 points in 18 minutes  on 8-11 shooting...leading the team.   Last year, against Muhlenburg in the post season, in 20 minutes, Lem Atanga had 6 rebounds and 14 points on 7-11 shooting.  In the Final Four, Lem scored 10 points in 14 minutes on 2-5 from the 3-point areas in the C. Newport game.  In the Championship win against Wash. U. last year, Lem had 6 rebounds and 9 points in 20 minutes...but more important, it was her late game rebound and put back that inspired her teammates...the bench all rose up and everyone on the Amherst side, coaches, players and Amherst fans knew that the game was over.  Wash. U. would not make a comeback.
In summary, how does such a player on a great championship team that had gone to three straight Final Fours, not be considered.
What I have posted  is a method that, IMO, is fairer overall but requires much more effort and time.  I guess for now, we are at an impasse.

[gordonmann]

Thanks for the suggestion. 

I like the idea of weighting players' performance late in the season, which is something I hadn't really considered.  It's certainly a valid criteria for a Preseason All-American team, similar to putting a team that finished the year on a roll on your Preseason Top 25 ballot.

I do try to factor success against playoff teams into the equation, particularly for players that put up big numbers while playing for non-contenders.  I look at how they did against the best teams they played.  Do their numbers hold up when they aren't playing weak teams or are they padding their stats against Pee Wee Tech?

That's even more the case when the player's team is a non-contender in a generally weak conference.  If they don't face any playoff teams, then I look for games against teams from strong conferences. For this region, that means the NESCAC.

You bring up a good point on Atanga who is the kind of player that defies award processes like these.  She's a very valuable contributor, the type of player that I believe teams need to win titles.  She's versatile, plays well around the rim and adds depth off the bench.  But is she one of the best 25 players in the country?  I think that's hard to say definitively given her role on the Lord Jeffs as a reserve. Remember, she didn't start any games last year and was seventh on her own team in minutes. 

Players like her are critical to championship teams.  They are the types of players you want if you're building a roster from scratch.  But they sometimes don't get individual accolades.

The good news for her is, depending on Gromacki brings in, she should have a chance to play more minutes this year with Leyman graduated and working with monkeys in Africa (one of my favorite post-NCAA career destinations).

[Maine 1]

Just a couple of comments
Obviously, pre-season teams are a guess, particularly at the D3 level. There are so many good players that don't get attention unless they are on good teams.
On McCormick, I have watched her play several times over the past five years. My view is that if she were on anyother team but Amherst, she would be a first team all-NESCAC player.  I expect her to have a huge year this season. 
Interesting that Collins  of Babson is a fourth team player, yet kathleen King, who I believe is a far better player, is not mentioned.
Another player to watch this season in the NESCAC is Rachael Mack at Colby--she is a great all around player and should have a huge season.
Looking forward to another great year of D3 Hoops. Keep the discussions going.

[amh63]

Thanks again, Gordonmann.....for your open mind.  Do not expect anything less from a Trinity man.   Several further comments.  Lem Atanga McCormick out of Chicago has Div.1 talent.  If I recall properly, she received an appointment to the Air Force Academy but it was withdrawn later.   I believe she wants to pursue a medical career and that interest helped her come to Amherst.  This year as a senior, she may start, but I believe she is more valuable coming off the bench..much like the "sixth man" role made famous by a Celtics player.  Either way, I believe her minutes throughout the season will still be somewhat limited.  It is more a "medical" reason rather than a talent team reason.  If she plays more minutes this year then that means she has been allowed and she has made the decision.

[MVP]

Happy New Year to all NESCAC WBB fans! A few thoughts on the Pre-season All Americans.  No list is ever perfect. There is a bunch to comment about recent posts but I'll start w/ Amh63. Amh63  argues that the "picker" didn't put enough effort nor time into the selections.  A pretty bold and patronizing statement.
Amh63  calls the list a "joke" Wow!  The "picker" un-like you is not biased. You sound like the typical "homer". Maybe the "picker" should just select the whole Amherst team and place them on the 2012 preseason All American teams. You say there are two returning Amherst players( Nationwide search) that played more valuable roles than Collins. Maybe you are the one who should take the effort and time to reviewl the stats.
I did check the stats/ records... and would like to discuss more...
You say there are two returning Amherst players that played more valuable roles than Collins. Which Amherst players are you possibly speaking about?  There are actually 5 Amherst forwards returning, 3 seniors, a junior and a sophomore.  I'll begin with the 3 returning seniors, Renner, Rizzo and McCormick.
Renner, started 8 games, averaged 20 min per game, averaged less than 3 pts per game.  Fg%of .321.
Rizzo, did not start in 33 games, averaged less than 4 mins per game , averaged less than 1 pt per game, fg% of .143.
McCormick, did not start in 33 games, averaged 17 mins per game, averaged 6.0 pts per game, fg% of .404, averaged just over 4 rebounds per game. One stat that does stand out for McCormick... she shoots .833 FF%, however she had only 4 freethrows all season  in conference play. Hardly amazing!! Hardly super valuable roles! So, which player were you speaking about?
Collins, a sopomore   on the other hand, started 22-25 games, 3 non-starts were last three games of the season, w/ a broken right hand. Averaged 28 mins per game, averaged 15 pts per game, fg% of .538 and  averaged just under 10 rebounds per game. Here is the real value beyond her nightly double /double stats for scoring and rebounds..., she had 55 assists, 59 steals and 89 blocks( 10th in the NCAA's) Renner had 64 assists, 6 steals and 6 blocks, Rizzo had 5 assists 1 steal, 0 blocks.  McCormick had 29 assists, 16 steals and 9 blocks. Hardly amazing!
Crowley , a junior  started 0 games,  averaged under 9 mins per game, averaged under 4 pts per game, fg% of .488, less than 2 rebounds per game. Dimario, a sopohomore started 0 games , averaged just over 5 mins per game , averaged 0.7 points per game, fg%of .333 Hardly amazing! 
To your several IMO's and specifically "Lem" you cite ,,,one performance from 2 years ago , yeah 2 years ago, where she scored 13 pts and had 10 rebounds. Wow! The Babson front 3 do that every night, night after night. You also cite a rebound and putback that, fans knew the game was over. Are you serious? 
You ask "how does a player on a championship team  not be considered. Hey Amh63, she was considered. She wasn't even close. Again, Atanga,  averaged only 17 mins a game, averaged 6 pts per game, averaged 6 boards per game, had only 7 steals/ 9 blocks all season. Hardly All American stats! 
In your opinion, the analysis should be '"critical games against best teams. Fair point, but  again, if you look at critical games against the best teams, 2012 pre-season All Americans should only include one Amherst player, Caroline Stedman.
There is so much more that needs to be addressed with your posts but I'll leave it at that for now.

[MVP]

To Maine 1,

McCormick, a 1st team all- NESCAC team?  Come on, first she has to earn many more minutes, maybe she'll do that this year, I hope so. She has to have more than 4 freethrows in the conference for the entire season. She also has to produce many more assists, steals/ and blocks( 7/9) to even be considered eligible. 
As far as Collins/ King. They're both great players, (probably 2 of the best power forwards in the country) It's obvious you haven't seen them play too much, a few games isn't really enough. Collins does it all.
She  averages a double / double ( pts/ rebounds) almost  everynight. She is in the top 10 in the country for FG%She is in the top 10 NCAA' s for blocks(89). She also had 59 steals. She has 2 more years to showcase her skills
King another great player, also averaged close to a double/ double, she had 14 blocks for the season 63 steals
However, I do agree King ...should of made the list.
Rachael Mack is a great player at Colby,  she does it all.  It will be great watching her play her senior year.  However,  on top of the points/ rebounds,  it is the assists, blocks and steals that distinquish and make the Babson big three All Americans.  I believe Babson plays Colby mid February.

[amh63]

MVP....you do post from the heart and with passion.  From one "homer" to another, I hope Babson with, in your words so to speak, all-american front court, has a great season.  If luck prevails and the talent Amherst has returning performs well, Amherst will also have a good season.  Even the chance to return to the Final Four for the fourth straight year.   If both teams live up to both our bias expectations, maybe Babson and Amherst will meet for a third straight time in the post season.  In that game, I hope everyone will be healthy and all players at the top of their games.  If so, I should be at the contest and I will take Lem over Collins as players and Amherst over Babson. 

[gordonmann]

Maine1:

At the risk of turning this into the NEWMAC board, Kathleen King is an interesting case.  Her numbers are better than Collins, but she was "only" fourth team all region in 2011 while Collins was second.  That's according to people who see them both more than I ever will.  Unless I'm really familiar with the players involved or have reason to believe one school was underrepresented in All-Region voting (which clearly wasn't the case for Babson), I usually defer to the All-Region placements in the preseason.

MVP:

I think Amh63 was just venting and reacting, which is okay.  No harm, no foul. At least not to me.