WBB: NESCAC

[gordonmann]

I hope now that Gordonmann realize that Amherst has a great front court and can play with any team in any region.

For the most part, you're right.  Amherst's front court played well.  I underestimated them and I was wrong.  I acknowledged that in our broadcast, too.

However, I'm still left with the basic premise underlying my prediction last week.  Teams in the Northeast/East/Atlantic/Mid-Atlantic don't win national championships, regardless of how good their record is.  They haven't done in it 13 years now.  That intrigues me.

Amherst played well enough to win on Saturday, but didn't.  St. Lawence almost beat UW-Stevens Point in 2002, but didn't.  Eastern Connecticut almost beat Trinity (Texas) in 2003 but didn't.  Bowdoin almost beat Millikin in 2005 but didn't.  

If it was just a couple years, I could dismiss it as coincidence, just a couple good or bad breaks either way.  But the persistence of the results precludes this being a fluke.

My theory is that teams in this part of the country don't have enough depth in terms of big, physical players to beat the teams outside of this region at the Final Four.  Note that I'm not just talking height since there's more to physical play.  Also note that the physical advantage can apply  to guards as well as forwards.  One coach from this region suggested that's because there are so many programs, including non-Division III (D2, low level D1) competing for the same talent that they divide it up and make it much harder to establish depth.  Someone else mentioned the JV component below, which is an interesting factor I hadn't considered.

I tried this theory out on a Northeast region coach this weekend.  She agreed with the basic premise, though she thought the NESCAC schools could be immune to it since they have a wider recruiting base.

As it applies to Amherst, Leyman and Atanga McCormick certainly have the skill set I'm referring to.  But did it hurt Amherst that there wasn't a third or fourth forward on the team that did?  Did Leyman and Atanga McCormick wear down because Wash U could rotate three or four forwards throughout the game?

[kate]

Hello, Gordon!  The idea of the NESCAC Coach regarding the competition of the East, Northeast, & Mid Atlantic colleges all going after that same talent pool is a valid one, i think.  That  same competition in some instances is a good thing - where else could our graduating senior Kim Vennera play four outstanding years of women's basketball if she attended a school in the Mid West or West?  At 5'4", she could have been overlooked in spite of her incredible basketball ability.  She was named player of the year for the MAC.  Yes, a team of giants with great athletic ability is a good thing, but giving each person who has the basketball talent a chance to play for probably the last time on a team is a good thing, too.  Interesting thoughts there.

[amh63]

I have a follow up on the "factors" resulting in a lack of championships from the Eastern region in Women's BB.  One has mentioned talent, coaching, and depth.  I want to dwell on experience and leadership a bit.  Experience in winning tough games; leadership in critical times, etc.  It was pointed out by analysts with respect to the upsets in the men's Div. 1 NCAA tournament games that with the exception of Kentucky, the top seeded teams that survived the weekend had senior leadership.  The teams had experienced players that had been around for 3-4 years.  This could be the overlooked factor.  "Seniors" bring experience and therefore depth....giving that the talent level is there.  Another posters pointed out that the St. Lawrence team had senior leadership.
Amherst had young starters last year and this year the talented starters were again young....no seniors on the team.  There was a lack of depth of experienced players even when you considered the availability of injured starters from last year.
Washington University has a program that has a large squad, a JV program and the ability to have players return as graduate students.  The MVP player of the final 4 is a graduate student who has the experience of three previous final 4 play.  
The NESCAC doesn't have any form of JV programs and tend not to have large squads.  I believe that when a talented team with upperclass experience/leadership is guided by the right coach, one has a winner.
Again, I will say to all, watch out for Amherst who will be loaded with senior and junior starters with final 4 experience.

[mark_reichert]

Washington University has a program that has a large squad, a JV program and the ability to have players return as graduate students.  The MVP player of the final 4 is a graduate student who has the experience of three previous final 4 play.  

You're just going to keep going on about that, aren't you.  As many have pointed out, players who get a medical redshirt at colleges can come back for a fifth year if they have another major they want to add (and of course have the money).

[Pat Coleman]

And by the way, lots of D-III colleges have graduate programs, so you might want to find another tree to bark up.

[WUPHF]

The leadership argument was dead-on.  The Bears had a host of players who had been there before, including sophomores, juniors, and three key seniors.

The graduate student we had on the floor this weekend did win the big honors, and rightly so, but if you look at the season as a whole, she was one of several that made this all happen.

I also think the JV argument needs to be clarified.  The Bears have a 19 woman roster which is more than both Amherst and Hope, but all three schools have exactly the same number of athletic scholarships to offer. 

If you look at the box score, Amherst had 8 players with significant minutes while the Bears had 10.

And, I need to double check this, but from what I remember, the Washington University JV squad plays like 6-7 scrimmages against regional opponents.  The majority of the starters and key reserves this year never played much on the JV squad.

[amh63]

Pat,
So do many Div I schools.  What is your point  in stating that obvious fact in the discussion at hand?  Veteran experience of talented players.

[sumfun]

I assume by number of scholarships you mean none. 

I totally agree with the senior and final four experience discussion, and I also seem to remember comments at other times on this board that the Northeast schools like Amherst/Williams have to compete with the Ivys for players....something that the midwest schools for the most part do not have to do.  To get into most NESCAC schools you're academic resume must be up to par to the Ivy's.  The pool is small and it limits the possibilities.  The admissions dept won't give the coaches many passes when it comes academic standards.  I would say the standards are similar for Wash U and they probably lose some kids to the Ivys, Northwestern etc, but not as many.

[WUPHF]

I am boring enough that I find the elite university recruitment issue very interesting.  And, I am not expert, but here are a few thoughts.

The first is that I know Washington University competes very well with the Ivy League in the general admissions process.  Our top competitor used to be Northwestern, but in the last two years has been Yale.  In terms of the general admissions process, we are more competitive than Northwestern and at least two Ivy League schools.  Hard to believe, I know.  If you look at our Top 10 peer schools, the list includes several Ivy League schools plus Duke, Stanford, and Northwestern.

It is harder to compare the institution to non-peer schools.  Amherst has a much smaller admissions class.

An interesting question, and one that may be very hard to answer, would be to what extent do students consider the University first and the athletics program second.  Also, to what extent do students consider a Division I Ivy League program and a Division III program such as Amherst, Chicago or Washington University.

Washington University has several left and right coast players on the roster, including a Brown University transfer.  Amherst has a Chicago-area player that was reportedly recruited heavily by Coach Fahey.

I would have to think about this a little more.

[amh63]

A discussion topic to attempt to find the reasons that the Eastern schools are having a difficult time winning Div3 titles has morped into topics that, though interesting are often thorny.  I must preface here that I am not trying to put down any program, school or even conferences.
The question/discussion raised is now being pursued by the media in Div.1 (men's side) in a year where UNC, UCLA, Arizona, etc. are missing in the "big dance".  The power conferences are losing, and the mid-majors are winning.  Everyone seems to be delighted to see Cornell with no scholarship in the sweet 16, just like Davidson last year.  In short, Div.1 has many levels of BB programs.
Likewise in the 400+ Div3 schools.  Are all schools the same in size, cost, requirements, etc.?  Of course not.  Just as the BB programs at the schools are uneven.  Does particular schools, on paper, have advantages over other in the "recruiting" of BB players.  Of course.  Are particular programs stronger than others?  Yes.
Even in the NESCAC, there are significant differences in enrollment.  There are several members that have graduate programs/schools that attract students.  Most of the NESCAC BB programs, both men and women, recruit around the country and even overseas. They all compete with the Ivies, the UAA schools, Stanford, Duke, state universities, etc.  Getting the students is another matter.  Why do students pick Div3 over Div1 schools?  The primary reason is to participate in more than one sport.
Somewhere the coach and the BB program available enters.  Wash. U has a great program that goes to the final 4 quite often and gets talented players.  Amherst has a great men's BB program and now, a great women's program. Both have had Div.1 transfers.
Oh yes, even in Div3, I along with others, am delighted to see schools like MIT develop a strong BB program. Being an alum of sorts of MIT, I am quite aware of the class workload on even the brightest and talented students. 
Enough said.  WUH....don't need to "defend" your school's program.  I have a frat classmate who is a native St. Louis person and went to both the WashU law and business schools.....and donates accordingly.  We both know how good Wash U. has become.  Just do not take all the great local players!  Save some for the NESCAC.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat,
So do many Div I schools.  What is your point  in stating that obvious fact in the discussion at hand?  Veteran experience of talented players.

I raised the point because the way you keep hitting the point in regards to Wash U makes it far from obvious that you believe that, making it sound like it's a rare advantage.

[Title9Fan]

Most of the NESCAC BB programs, both men and women, recruit around the country and even overseas.

I enjoy your posts, but that is simply not an accurate statement.  NESCAC is unjustifiably arrogant in its approach to scouting and recruitment.   Very few players in NESCAC are from areas outside of their home states and/or New England. Even fewer are from regions outside the NE.  Yet how many New England high school teams are ever nationally ranked?  

NESCAC coaches tend to fish off docks in their own backyards instead of getting out into the national stream of talent.  

WashU is an extremely selective school and absolutely competes with the Ivies.  Yet the coach manages to get to the East coast to events targeting academically qualified prospects (along with Gromacki who was there) and she recruits all over the country.  Kids on nationally-ranked teams talk about coaches they've met and what they're looking for (in positions and talent) if they themselves can't qualify academically.   Word spreads like wildfire about coaches in the right places at the right time in the spring and summer of junior years when it comes to D3.

Recruiting when done right for academically elite colleges is hard work.  Two of the best college coaches I've met when it comes to recruiting nationally for academically elite schools both ended up in the Final 4.

It's not a coincidence.  

[amh63]

Title9Fan.....My statement on "recruiting" applies to all sports in general and even recent BB teams.  The Williams men's BB team was noted in the Washington Post to have players from 13 states and from Australia.  The Amherst men's team has players from Minn., California, Va.. NJ, Fla. and yes, even RI, Ct. and Mass.  The women's BB team has players from NY, NJ, ILL, Ohio, and even Mass.  It has had players from Va and other states outside of New England.  The women's national championship ice hockey team has goalies from South Carolina and California.   The men's soccer team has players from Korea, Brazil, Germany, etc.  There is another factor that must be pointed out.  In the NESCAC , their are limits put on the coaches of teams with respect to travel to meet potential recruits.  I  am aware that with respect to football, the coaches cannot visit potential recruits off-campus.  I am sure that similar restrictions apply to other sports.  It was only in the 80's that NESCAC teams were allowed to go to the NCAA...post regular season events.  These are restrictions dictated by the Presidents of the schools in the conference.  Please check the rosters of the various teams at Amherst and other conference schools.

[amh63]

To cite other sports is a bit unfair in the discussion here.  However, I forgot about the pair of twins from TX on the Amherst men's BB team.  The NE area is rich with prep/private schools that provide talented players for the conference.  These schools are nationally known and attract students from around the world.  They also serve as a place for many Div.1 schools to have high school "recruits" do a post HS year to improve their study habits, etc.  The private school leagues play a high level of  BB.  The UCONN men's program has benefited in the past from such private schools.  This talent pool is primarily used on the men's side.  I do not know about the women's side.  These "local " national known private schools know about the NESCAC programs and the conference coaches reap the benefits.
I hope this clarifies areas for you, Title9Fan.

[Title9Fan]

To cite other sports is a bit unfair in the discussion here.  

It dilutes the discussion; actually derails it for the most part.  You wrote "Most of the NESCAC BB programs, both men and women, recruit around the country and even overseas."  You are wrong. 

As for the other teams and sports, there are other forum topics for those discussions; this one is NESCAC WBB.