WBB: NESCAC

[Wydown Blvd.]

Thanks to you both!  Obtaining a DVD of a complete game makes great sense.  Also, you are the second person who mentioned the UAA as a great women's basketball conference. 

As for "recruiting", since there is not a binding LOI or scholarship deal like D1, how does recruiting work?  Does a coach say "I want you" and you are in?  That is basically the D1 model assuming your kid meets NCAA minimums --which are not that high a standard).  Or is not that clear?  I hear horror stories of D3 coaches telling a kid they are in and Admissions denies or waitlists them.  Any info on the D3 recruiting process?

After a coach says "I want you," then that sort of puts you on a list for slightly different consideration from the Admissions Office. That is a broad generalization, but you still have to meet or come close to meeting the same standards for admission as other students. I would say at the least the 25th percentile mark on scores/gpa (usually called "hards"). Its just that your basketball ability is now looked at as an excellent extra-curricular/leadership skill, and adds appropriately to your resume ("softs"). If there are two students with equal standing, you will basically get somewhat of a priority because you have someone in the admissions office specifically looking at your admissions profile. That's about it (legally) from the world of D3.

[hopefan]

Wydown... I think more than tough Admissions decisions being made, many times it's the financial aid decision that is critical....   Coaches likely will not usually recruit a kid who simply is below the admissions standards of a D3 school..  why?  because if they do get in, they are not likely going to be able to stay in..  there's very little academic flexibility at most D3 schools... if you get in, you have to find a curriculum, you have to go to class (or at least take tests and do papers), and you have to pass....  and unprepared students just can't do it...

However, whereas the borderline student, or less than borderline student may be admitted, there is less likelihood  that he/she will get a good scholarship package... particularly if the student is expecting scholarship money rather than loan....  this is where the academic standing of the college comes into play...  let's look at a top fifth, high 20's ACT kid... a solid student... but not necessarily at the level a WashU would give a $25k schol to.... Wash U will admit him, might offer 10k schol and 15k in loans...  school B on the other hand is thrilled with that academic record, and would award all scholarship.... where are most kids going to end up?  School B of course.   

I really think that the kind of individual who coaches at an academic type school is well aware of the type student to go after and is therefore rarely disappointed with admissions decisions.... financial aid decisions are another thing....

[Wydown Blvd.]

Thanks to you both!  Obtaining a DVD of a complete game makes great sense.  Also, you are the second person who mentioned the UAA as a great women's basketball conference. 

As for "recruiting", since there is not a binding LOI or scholarship deal like D1, how does recruiting work?  Does a coach say "I want you" and you are in?  That is basically the D1 model assuming your kid meets NCAA minimums --which are not that high a standard).  Or is not that clear?  I hear horror stories of D3 coaches telling a kid they are in and Admissions denies or waitlists them.  Any info on the D3 recruiting process?

Rare for a good coach to tell a kid they are in, and then they are denied or waitlisted. Either the coach would wait for the official or unofficial decision to come down or the coach would see that the kids scores are high enough above admission standards and make the call. Rare, but I guess its possible.

Wydown... I think more than tough Admissions decisions being made, many times it's the financial aid decision that is critical....   Coaches likely will not usually recruit a kid who simply is below the admissions standards of a D3 school..  why?  because if they do get in, they are not likely going to be able to stay in..  there's very little academic flexibility at most D3 schools... if you get in, you have to find a curriculum, you have to go to class (or at least take tests and do papers), and you have to pass....  and unprepared students just can't do it...

However, whereas the borderline student, or less than borderline student may be admitted, there is less likelihood  that he/she will get a good scholarship package... particularly if the student is expecting scholarship money rather than loan....  this is where the academic standing of the college comes into play...  let's look at a top fifth, high 20's ACT kid... a solid student... but not necessarily at the level a WashU would give a $25k schol to.... Wash U will admit him, might offer 10k schol and 15k in loans...  school B on the other hand is thrilled with that academic record, and would award all scholarship.... where are most kids going to end up?  School B of course.   

I really think that the kind of individual who coaches at an academic type school is well aware of the type student to go after and is therefore rarely disappointed with admissions decisions.... financial aid decisions are another thing....

I agree with most of what you said above. I hadn't address finaid questions, which in the UAA are pretty interesting considering most, if not all, of the schools are able to offer merit based scholarships. I stand by what I said about admissions decisions... my short professional experience in admissions helps a bit, but I have to generalize of course.

The nescac/uaa finaid process is way too complicated for a forum post. I know you said "most kids" but every case is so drastically different, its incredible. Coaches usually have little leeway with scholarship packages, but can have its recruits to apply to certain scholarship programs or (in the UAA) particular colleges. But I agree, that the small $$s from School A, but big $$$s from School B plays a big part --- which why some schools/teams recruit better than other when they can close that gap without offering $$$s

The coach definitely tries to recruit kids that fit into the "system" both academically and athletically, but you only addressed kids that are prone to drop out of the school. More importantly is the fact that students frequently drop from the team. Coaches may not put a high-schooler high on their recruiting priority list, but they will rarely turn an application and possible acceptance down because they don't know who may just push through the crop (and stick in their program). Quite simply, a full-ride recruit in D3 may not play four years. No matter how prized the prospective student, once you get somewhere on the list, you will get that admissions push for "soft" qualities. There are more than enough academically-median student-athletes who get "10k schol and 15k loans" who pick the better school over School B's better finaid package or more importantly, sometimes that 10k/15k is the best finaid package they may receive!

Here are generalizations of different student-athletes that apply to schools in the UAA and may apply to NESCACs:
the regional kid - applies to all of the schools in the region both UAA and may include a "big state school" (to attend as a non-student-athlete) and other regional destinations, is smart enough to get into the best school, but will get money from all of the others

the ivy kid - applies to the ivies/stanford and their D1 counterparts (sometimes recuited, sometimes walk-on, sometimes non-athlete), uses the UAA as another option because UAA schools offer merit based scholarships unlike most if not all Ivies

the uaa (or insert conference here) kid - applies to every school in the UAA or conference X. may or may not talk to all of the coaches in the league and the parent/kid may or may not pit the coaches against each other

the concerned-Christian kid - applies to a UAA school, but is unsure about the nature of non-religious higher education, also applies to the higher-caliber academic religious colleges to take a peak at both

the basketball kid - has great academic #s, but applies to schools based solely on basketball talent with some minimum academic standard in mind (sometimes this is similar to a UAA kid), a testament to the Division III recruiting battles, but unlike the UAA kid, goes to the school that both fits athletically and gives the best finaid offer

[sumfun]

Williams and Amherst are like the Ivys....need blind, need based.  No athletic or merit scholarships....not sure about other schools in NESCAC. 

We asked one UAA coach, how come so many on the roster?  The coach told us that they'd recruited well that year and in the spring when the phone rang it was always a kid saying that they got in and were coming.  So coaches don't always know who will end up on their doorstep.  They can even chose to cut kids come the fall if the roster is too big. 

Coaches also say that since there is no money attached to a place on the team, they have to continually recruit their current players to keep their rosters full.  I wouldn't say this is the case for Wash U or Amherst or a top program, but you can see how that could be the case with middle of the league or lower teams.

[farmboy]

Speaking in regards to NESCAC and IVY scenarios.  The coaches know that admitting anyone that does not have the academic standards to get in will not do anyone any favors.  It is quite a bit harder to go to what are already extremely challenging schools, and then add on a major sport. So IF you have the numbers AND you have the ability AND the coach feels you can contribute you will get THE push.  The most common way this is accomplished is the student will be asked to apply via early acceptance...so it requires a commitment on the part of the player.  I am sure some students just apply and get in and then go out for the sport...and occassionally make the team and play...but not real common.
                 One IVY league coach who tried to get our student into their track program said one of the biggest things they look for is that the student is well organized.  Even if they are smart and talented if they can't organize their time well they just won't be able to make it work.

Its quite a deal when your daughter or son can utilize a sport talent to get them an edge into a great school...because the truth is there are a lot of smart unidimensional kids out there.  In my opinion this option is overlooked far too often when I see Dads particularly talk like D1 is where all the greatest go...just not true.  When you are in a system that primarily wants a ballplayer then the amount of time alotted including coaching time and coaching ability is vastly greater with fairly predictable results.

[Wydown Blvd.]

check the men's NESCAC boards. it has a recent post with more talk on the recruiting subject:
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4491.9390

[PostPlay]

Hi Everyone--

Great perspective...thanks!

I also am guessing the visit is key -- how your kid likes the coach and team and visa versa.  Plus the facilities, dorms, etc. 

Is spring your junior year to make visits?

Thanks!

[sumfun]

Make first visits throughout junior year and meet coach face to face.  Go back and visit your top 2 to 5 choices depending on your time.   In the fall they can spend the night with girls on the team, watch a practice, depending on what is going on some will let you play pick up with them in pre-season practice.  That's when you can have to chat about whether coach wants you to apply early decision.

Throughout the junior year, summer and senior year send updated resumes as get new academic info (SAT scores, national merit etc) and athletic team and individual info.  Can even see if teams that you're most interested in hold a summer camp.  Might be worth attending.

[sumfun]

Good luck to Amherst and Bates in Vegas....if they get there?

[nescac1]

Article which notes a future Eph:

http://www.salemnews.com/sports/x1666507115/Danvers-girls-finally-escape-feisty-Marblehead

She was her conference player of the year as a junior:

http://www.salemnews.com/sports/x1690088035/Danvers-Macdonald-named-girls-basketball-MVP-in-NEC-Small-as-boys-girls-all-star-teams-are-announced

and she is also a big soccer star (I imagine she may play both sports at Williams?)

[deiscanton]

Update on D3Hoops.com Classic--

The Bates women are in Las Vegas according to Pat Coleman, but the Amherst women have not arrived in Las Vegas yet as of 5:53 PM Eastern Monday.   The Amherst women have not officially cancelled the trip yet, however, and are still attempting to get to Las Vegas in order to play at least one game.

The modified schedule for tomorrow has 3 games with Bates playing St. Norbert at 2 PM Pacific-- 5 PM Eastern, but the Amherst game vs. Kenyon will not be played as of this moment-- Whitworth v Ripon on the men's side will be played in the 4 PM Pacific/7 PM Eastern time slot instead.   Should Amherst not be able to make it to Las Vegas, St. Norbert will play Kenyon on Thursday on the women's side with Bates playing Kenyon on Wednesday at 2 PM Pacific/5 PM Eastern.

Update #2--

No Amherst game Tuesday

Revised schedule-- Tuesday from Las Vegas, NV

1.)  Men-- UW-Stevens Point v. Colorado College--  Noon Pacific,  3 PM Eastern
2.)  Women--  Bates v. St. Norbert-- 2 PM Pacific, 5 PM Eastern
3.)  Men--  Whitworth v Ripon-- 8 PM Pacific, 11 PM Eastern

Revised schedule for Wednesday

1.)   Women-- Kenyon v Bates-- 2 PM Pacific, 5 PM Eastern
2.)    Men--  Colorado College v Whitworth-- 6 PM Pacific, 8 PM Eastern
3.)    Men--  Ripon v Ramapo--  8 PM Pacific, 11 PM Eastern

Revised schedule for Thursday  

1.)  Women-- St. Norbert v Kenyon--  Noon Pacific,  3 PM Eastern

Source--  Video webcast of today's men's game between UW-Stevens Point and Ramapo from the D3Hoops.com Classic.

Update No. 3-- (Tuesday morning, 12/28-- 6:08 AM Eastern)  Should Amherst be able to make it to Las Vegas,  Amherst would play just 1 game in the tournament on Thursday-- that game would be vs. Kenyon at noon Pacific, 3 PM Eastern on Thursday, according to Kenyon's updated athletics website.  Hopefully, there will be another update during Tuesday's D3Hoops.com Classic games as to the status of Amherst's trip to Las Vegas.  The revised schedule for Wednesday is now assumed to be the Wednesday schedule for the D3Hoops.com Classic unless otherwise further updated.  

Update 3A  (Tuesday afternoon 12/28-- 3:52 PM Eastern)--  Modifications made to reflect the cancellation of Amherst's trip to Las Vegas due to the weather as announced by Amherst's athletics department this afternoon.  The games involving Amherst this week will not be made up, and St. Norbert will play Kenyon on Thursday instead.

Looking forward to seeing Bates in action.

[deiscanton]

Update #4 on the D3Hoops.com Classic--

Amherst has publicly announced on their athletics website Tuesday afternoon (12/28/10) that due to the women's basketball team not being able to arrive in Las Vegas by the Noon Pacific/3 PM Eastern deadline today, the blizzard that affected New England has officially cancelled Amherst's participation in this week's D3Hoops.com Classic.

The games involving Amherst this week vs Kenyon and St. Norbert in Las Vegas will not be made up, and the revised D3Hoops.com Classic schedule is now final.

Bates will still play today and tomorrow vs St. Norbert and Kenyon respectively, and St. Norbert will play Kenyon on Thursday.

[deiscanton]

I'm watching the Bates v St. Norbert game now, since I did pay for the full D3Hoops.com Classic internet package.

St. Norbert up 1 at the half in a well-played first half, but Bates had the final possession of the half and the shot to take the lead went off iron at the buzzer.

Well-played first half from both teams.

It would be interesting to see the final numbers of the people watching the games on-line vs the people attending the games in person.   Due to the weather, I would happen to think that more people will be watching the video streams on-line this week.   It looks like just family members of the players are in the stands in Las Vegas, and there doesn't seem to be that many in the arena.  The arena seats about 2,800 in the configuration set up for the D3Hoops.com Classic, from what I could get out of the videocast commentary.

Very brave attempt from Amherst to actually consider taking a charter bus to Columbus, Ohio to fly out to Las Vegas, but I guess that didn't pan out seeing that Amherst was forced to finally cancel the trip this afternoon.

According to Dave McHugh and Pat Coleman's commentary,   Bates flew early from Maine to Charlotte, NC before the storm and stayed overnight in Charlotte in order to fly out to Las Vegas to make it to the classic.  That arrangement did work for Bates, and as a result, I get to see Bates on video this week.

Back to the game.....

Update-- St. Norbert defeated Bates today, 78-69.    Bates plays Kenyon tomorrow.

[frank uible]

As expected, Bates is more resourceful than Amherst.

[amh63]

Nice comment Frank U.  Considering the storm arrived on Sunday, the 26th, and the team members needed to arrive from around the country......who knows if Amherst had the option to leave a day early.   I guess one has to keep the Williams' standards up.