WBB: NESCAC

[nescac hoops]

last year, matia kostakis, sarah barton and a HEALTHY meg coffin made an NCAA "run" that ended after the round of 64. yes, i am not one to tell meg coffin how/when to spend your senior year. and i think bates will fare better in the NESCAC next year with what bowdoin and williams are losing this year and with an 85% (?) healthy meg coffin. who am i, but i think she is missing the "joy" of being a d3/NESCAC athlete.

[Pat Coleman]

I say do whatever it takes to play your maximum available years under the rules. Why not?

[whoarewebobcats]

one thing about bates' 06 year--it was very much a transitional year. We had just lost the Taylor-Zurek-Hochadel trio that defined the team for the previous few years; Matia was new to the team, so was Jackie Powers (who the hell knows where she went), and Val was a frosh getting a lot of minutes--that's a lot of new blood around Meg that didn't really know where they belonged. Plus, and anyone who saw Bates before about this time last year can attest, Sarah played pretty poorly early on--she didn't look the same. I think they were trying to redefine her role, and I think she struggled getting acclimated to not having players who knew where to be--it's much easier to throw backdoor passes, no-looks, cross-court etc etc if you know where everyone's going to be. I consider this also to be a transitional year in many ways--half the team is freshmen, several of whom are very good--and the rest are solidifying. But I think they have the formula of a winner next year, with Sarah, Teal, Val, Matia, Meg (if she is coming back) starting and Kellie Goodridge, Lauren Yanofsky, and probably one or two new frosh getting big minutes. But Murphy does need to get more consistent with his recruiting classes, it seems each year half the team is new.

[nescac hoops]

one thing about bates' 06 year--it was very much a transitional year. We had just lost the Taylor-Zurek-Hochadel trio that defined the team for the previous few years;

the '06 team beat bowdoin in the conference game and hosted the nescac finals (which i believe was the first time bowdoin hadn't hosted in the past 5 years) so it's hard to blame their ncaa tourny demise on a "transistion year" when they finishes first in the conference for the regular season - zurek and co. never even beat bowdoin, though correct me if i'm wrong. bates merely just blew it in the ncaa's - no excuses.

my friend is in the athletic department up at bates and said that it was "suggested" to jackie powers that she leave the school undisclosed reasons. but officially, she left on her own terms.

[whoarewebobcats]

interesting about jackie powers...I had heard some things around campus about her not really fitting in in terms of the student body, but nothing credible and only from a couple of people (which obviously doesn't represent, necessarily, a fair assessment). I hadn't heard of any problems she had had or anything like that, but the whole situation seems to have had a weird vibe.

A few things about your previous post. You seem to be responding to something different than what I was saying. I wasn't trying to justify/apologize for the team's shortcomings, or even say that they were bad or anything like that. It is a fact that they were in a transitional year: the starting 5 had almost always three new players (Sarah and Meg being the only holdovers). They lost a class that defined the program for three years and led them through their most successful run as a team, including the nationally recognized Olivia Zurek. They had two girls transfer in, Matia and Jackie, one who's role went from relatively unimportant to suddenly crucial (Annie Whiting, going from giving Olivia and Betsy rest to playing alongside Meg and Matia for most of games), and deal with both losing Leah Schouten, who had really emerged as a solid contributor the year before, playing without Meg early on, and having Kyla Decato inexplicably come off the bench while Becca Buckler, now transferred out, starting over her (which I always figured caused some drama, since Kyla played hard and seemed to play less as she got older, but that's just me guessing). Granted, it is almost defintional of college programs to have transitions every year, but to me this is a pretty significant transition, much like the boys team will be facing this coming year. Expectations were not high for last year's Bates team--but I didn't say they were terrible. I also didn't try to make excuses for why they didn't go far in NCAAs or anything like that--it is commendable that they got that far, in my mind. I rest the "blame" of their "NCAA demise" on the fact that all but one team loses, ultimately. I never even spoke in those terms. It was a successful season given what happened, but if you had told anyone who followed the program that they would go 8-1 in conference and make a late run, at the beginning of the year when things looked kind of bleak, or, at least, unknown, they would have doubted you.

"Zurek and co." did beat Bowdoin at Bates in 04-05; the game was non-conference though it was never explained why. Someone in the athletic dept. told us that Bowdoin asked to switch which game counted for conference play, the earlier (which Bowdoin hosted) instead of the later (which Bates hosted). I don't know why this was requested (or really if it was, perhaps it's just a rumor) or why Bates accepted the request, but that's what I heard. The 04-05 team was the strongest team I've seen Bates field--having Heather Taylor and Sarah in the same backcourt was unbelievable--but that Bowdoin team was also strong and when it came down to it always did the little things to come out on top.

So, in summation, I don't understand where your post is coming from--I wasn't making excuses, getting to the tourney was a surprise, an accomplishment, etc. etc. I simply expect the 07-08 team to come close to the level of the 04-05 team, the biggest question mark being whether they can have the same kind of teamwork as a team that played together for so long. Every program has years that are more transitional with lower expectations, you can't expect to win it all every year, but you ramp up for the years that it seems possible. Last, I think it's pretty premature to guess what kind of health Meg will be at (85% was your conjecture)--we're talking about a full calendar year from now. Anything could happen, what's the point in guessing.

[whoarewebobcats]

one other note, I was just looking at the 03-04 year and the conference game between Bates and Bowdoin was also the first one, which Bates hosted, so the reasoning must go back beyond that year. Normally, the second game is the conference game, as far as I know--who knows why it changed and when exactly it did, etc. etc. As I said, what I had heard was a sort of source-from-a-source situation, so who knows what's right. Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't "making excuses" or anything like that, I was simply relaying what I had heard, because it had seemed strange at the time.

[feces monkey]

It's Coffin's decision, so best of luck whichever way, but I have one question:

Is there a minumum number of semester credits required to participate in athletics? I think it's a school-by-school policy and, if memory serves, you have to be taking three full-credit (i.e., one credit) courses at Bowdoin to participate intercollegiately.

I'm sure there is an NCAA policy, but I believe Bowdoin's (and likely most NESCAC's) is more stringent. Anyone know for sure? I checked the Bowdoin academic website, but it is so convoluted I think I actually reached the end of the internet while navigating through it.

Obviously, if someone was coming back for a semester I would think they would be taking a full course load regardless of graduation minimums, considering the price.

Unfortunately, **** monkey has an ax to grind with the poll and can't seem to get past it. It does seem he/she could be a valuable poster if it were possible for him/her to look past the chip on his/her shoulder.

My ax has been worn down to a nub, and the solicitation of votes by ATN has figuratively snapped the handle. I officially give up trying to legitimize your poll. I do, however, appreciate the gender neutrality in your post. Quite progressive.

[nescac hoops]

jackie powers is, for a lack of a better word, "sketchy". she left boston college, where she was on the soccer team and may have had a scholarship, but left a week into their preseason and then enrolled in bates for the second semester. my buddy doesn't know/tell her exact reason for leaving the school, but i think it was disciplinary and not "fitting in" with the student body.

i wasn't saying you were making excuses - i meant no excuses can be made for them losing the ncaa game. sorry, misunderstanding. i think that bates had to readjust that year with what they lost in the year prior with graduating zurek and co. however, by beating bowdoin and getting to host the nescac finals, they proved that they had figured out "life after zurek" by regular season's end. yeah, they had some early season bumps along the road as they adjusted without those 3 seniors and an injured meg coffin. however, come ncaa tourny time, there are no excuses based on how well they did last regular season for losing in the first round. they were better than that, even if they weren't expected to have the season they did in the first place. after playing 20+ games together, the two rookie of the year's from the previous season (one up for all american nomination), the nescac POY and all american (or canidate?), and a bunch of talented veterans (annie whiting was VERY good) should have made it past the first round game. next year bates will also have to readjust with the come back of meg coffin, incoming freshman, etc. - kostakis will not get as many looks, etc. of course it will make bates a better team with coffin back but last season they had shortcomings with her at near 100%. yes, she has a full calendar year to heal however, tearing your entire knee apart is a tough injury to recover from fully, especially for somebody as big and mobile as meg. i hope she recovers fully - she will probably be one of, if not the best, top players in the conference again but i don't think she will necessarily be the same. that being said, the nescac takes a big hit with williams and bowdoin losing so much. however, bowdoin always seems to stay on top time and time again even if they are going through what many think will be a "transition year" for them.

feces,
meg coffing isn't going to school this semester....or the next one either. she is taking a full year off (this spring semester and next fall semester). she will take the classes she would have been taking this semester to graduate  and will take them in spring '08 so she will have a normal/full classload. in other words, she is no longer a bates student again unti next january. somebody correct me if i'm wrong but that's what i heard.

[Pat Coleman]

My ax has been worn down to a nub, and the solicitation of votes by ATN has figuratively snapped the handle. I officially give up trying to legitimize your poll. I do, however, appreciate the gender neutrality in your post. Quite progressive.

Just shut up. It was an exercise in getting people to actually post on the damn board. Some people we don't need to have post on the board. You're one of them.

[whoarewebobcats]

nescachoops, Points well taken, though I disagree that the season is as much of a failure as you deem it. It's true and fair to say that they had figured themselves out over the course of the season, and they had the tools to do some things. I think they had the tools to do, basically, what they did, and not really any more. Admittedly, I don't know much about other conferences so I don't know how we should match up nationally--I know Bates has been, at least over the course of the Zurek era, high up in the rankings with Bowdoin and USM, so perhaps they did underachieve. I was simply laying out the expectations, but, again, point taken that they learned to play with one another over the course of the year. As I said in the last post, most every year is transitional by definition for college programs, and the good ones, like Bowdoin, fight through them. Also, I should have been clearer when talking about projecting Meg's health--I wasn't saying she'd be 100%, I'm simply saying there's no way of telling now, so there's no point in projecting how she'll feel in a full calendar year from now. One other point of contention, but this is pretty much semantics--Annie Whiting was a solid player, no more no less. She was nice to have on the court, could hit out to 16-18 ft reliably, and had some size underneath. I don't know that "VERY good" is fair--I think she was generally overmatched as a starter. It's sort of like Katie Franklin this year--excellent work ethic/team player, but skill-wise I think most Bates fans are surprised with the senior outputs of girls like Annie and Katie after seeing them in limited action throughout the course of their careers. I loved having Annie on the team, she seemed to have a great personality and solid set of skills, but I think expounding on her skills as a reason why Bates should do more is maybe overstating things just a bit.

Also, love the description of Jackie Powers. Wonderful.

Feces, I've heard the same as nescachoops, that Meg will not enroll the next two semesters and finish her workload winter semester. Bates' credit system is extremely easy, there aren't credit hours, everything is just 1, and you need 32 to graduate, so assuming she's taken 4 every semester, she'll take a normal 4 that semester and keep going. If memory serves, you can't be enrolled at all with less than three credits, athlete or not. I think they're trying to separate from schools that have part-time students, or something (along the same lines as wanting everyone to live on campus). As for the gender neutrality, I think the image of a monkey as your ID might raise Pat's progressiveness to consider that you're a woman. Perhaps if you're a dude you should go with a skull and crossbones, or a large SUV, or some other macho thing. Or perhaps the anonymity only adds to the Feces Monkey Mystique.

[nescac hoops]

i do not always agree with the d3hoops poll, however i do appreciate how hard it is to have an accurate poll when no games are televised and there are few out-of-region games, and a lot of the votes are made based on hearsay, how team x and y played against a common opponent, and other forms of opinions that have to be made with out having actually seen a lot of the teams in person. it's not entirely accurate but it does give a broad idea of where teams stand. yes, i would like to see my williams women's team ranked higher but they are "receiving votes" and should not be ranked any higher than 20th. however, the d3 poll has them in the right area of the poll, which is the most you can ask from voters who often times have to vote on teams who they have never seen or have never even seen one of their opponents play. that being said, i didn't like the hope-bowdoin "flopping". i think that if you rank a team 1st, they should remain there until they lose. that's my only real complaint so far this season. yet, i still like the poll for no other reason that it sparks debate/discussion about teams i would otherwise never heard of from outside the NE region.

wawb,
i don't think the season was a failure at all - regular season conference champs, beat #1 bowdoin, coffin nescac POY, etc. however, i was pointing out that when meg coffin returns it is not exactly guaranteed that they will have a long run into the ncaa tourny and should not be the sole reason for her decision to return, which i know it is not completely. last year's team will was about as good as i expect next year's team to be (no whiting, and possibly not the "same" meg coffin balanced out by kostakis and barton with another year of experience). i am in no way trying to quanitfy loss/gain of talent or the extent of an injury, but i still expect last year's and next year's teams to be about comprable....albeit in a much weaker conference. like i've said before, it is obviously meg's decision and i might choose differently if i was actually in her shoes. however, as someone who has sat next to the family when i was both rooting for the same team (for williams and her older brother) and rooting against (when meg played williams), i think they are somewhat missing the point of nescac athletics - excellent athletes who have a chance to have a complete  college experience both socially and academically . again, who am i to decide? but that was what i found to be the best part of being a nescac athlete. just my opinion but i think down the road it could be a little "awkward" explaining in an interview to an employer (who may not understand the importance/significance of athletics and why one would return) why there is a one year gap in her education and why it took her five years to graduate. more importantly, i found spending my senior spring with my classmates to be one of the more special times of my college years. however, i understand this is MY experience and can still respect her decision.

[whoarewebobcats]

nescachoops, thanks for the insights. I think there are probably many people who lose sight of the importance of NESCAC athletics, the Coffins wouldn't be the first. As a fan, I'm psyched at the possibilities of next year; I don't know what I'd do in her shoes, mostly because I'm not an athlete so I can't imagine what that part of life means to a person. I hadn't thought about it from an employment standpoint--interesting.

Also, I agree about the poll--let's not be too critical about it (though I think FM is just having some fun). There's no way to make a completely "legitimate" poll in the sense that there's always going to be argument--even if you can see a lot of games, you still might make a different choice than others. I suppose they could use computers but A) that's soulless and a copout and B) look where it got college football. The poll is fun for fans and probably good locker room material, but let's not get too worked up over it. If someone wants some input on their vote, fine; if you don't want to give any input, that's fine too.

[Pat Coleman]

You want a messed-up poll -- the coaches' poll can't even seem to agree what games it's taking into account.

Rank Institution - First Place Votes Last Week's Rank Record Points
     
1. University of Chicago (Ill.) -7 5 16-0 246
2. Bowdoin College (Maine) - 1 1 17-1 212
3. Messiah College (Pa.) 7T 16-1 206
4. Calvin College (Mich.) 10 15-1 202
5. Wilmington College (Ohio) 9 16-1 196
6. University of Southern Maine 6 15-1 193
7. Howard Payne University (Texas) 12 17-0 192
8. Hope College (Mich.) 3 15-2 191
9. University of Scranton (Pa.) - 2 4 15-2 187
10. University of Rochester (N.Y.) 2 14-2 175

So you tell me -- is it through last night, with Scranton ranked No. 9, or is it through Sunday, with Scranton receiving two first-place votes?

Very strange. I wish the coaches' association took its polling more seriously.

[mytwocents]

Must be a typo regarding the 2 first place votes for Scranton?  All the team records seem up to date and with a total 245 of 250 would'nt Chicago have 9 first place votes?  Thanks.

[Pat Coleman]

A first place vote, like ours, is worth 25, second place is worth 24, third place is worth 23. They have 175 points' worth of first place votes and that means 71 from the other three ballots (24, 24 and 23, or two No. 2 votes and a No. 3).