MBB: State University of New York Athletic Conference

[Bengalsrule]

+1 Magicman +1 !!!!!!!!!

[7express]

The SUNYAC should go to an East/West format.  No way a team from about as far West in New York as you can possibly go (Fredonia state) should be making multiple 5+ hour journeys to Plattsburgh, Oneonta, New Paltz, and Cortland state every season.  Even Plattsburgh being way up in the North Country there is pretty screwed when it comes to traveling.  Aside from Potsdam, isn't the next closest YAC school like 3 hours away?? 

[magicman]

The SUNYAC should go to an East/West format.  No way a team from about as far West in New York as you can possibly go (Fredonia state) should be making multiple 5+ hour journeys to Plattsburgh, Oneonta, New Paltz, and Cortland state every season.  Even Plattsburgh being way up in the North Country there is pretty screwed when it comes to traveling.  Aside from Potsdam, isn't the next closest YAC school like 3 hours away??

Yes it is, 7express. Plattsburgh to Oneonta is 230 miles  or to New Paltz is 231. That's where the Cardinals are off to this weekend which is their shortest weekend trip.  Plattsburgh to Cortland is 266 miles and to Oswego is  219 miles, our 2nd shortest weekend  trip.  Those are just short jaunts compared with the Plattsburgh to Fredonia and Buffalo weekend...419 miles and 377 miles respectively. Our other weekend excursion is another "take the scenic route and take your pick " trip to Brockport or Geneseo ,  both only 334 miles  away. (How did they manage that. ) And don't forget the Lake effect snow storms, and the winds that come howling off Lake Ontario to further heighten your travel experience as you roll on down the interstate or thruway.

I remember my freshman year, April 1966, I had a tennis match at Oswego. The wind was so bad that when you threw the ball up to serve it sailed about a dozen feet away from you. Needless to say that match was played inside the field house that day.   

[7express]

Damn, some of those trips are insane.  Makes Western's trip to Southern Maine (about 4.5 hours) seem like a breeze.  Western isn't that close to any school either (Eastern is about 80 miles and about an hour and 45 minutes, and that's the closest) but the majority of the LEC is 3 hours or less from all other institutions so it's very easy to make day trips those games.  This weekend Western is playing @ UMass Boston (2.5 hours away) and even though I'll meet up with my uncle who lives in a suburb and my cousin who goes to BU for dinner, I won't have to leave that early (I'll leave about 10) and won't get back even late either, and that's the case with most of the schools, Southern Maine and Plymouth state (about the same distance as USM) being the only exceptions.

When Plattsburgh has to do the Fredonia Buffalo State trip do they take off Thursday so their not spending 6+ hours on the bus, and do the same thing Saturday, or do they go out Friday and come back Saturday??

[Bengalsrule]

Magicman you played tennis???

[amh63]

Magicman.....here I am again on your board.  I played Tennis my freshman year too....or tried to make the freshman team.
However was not allowed since I did not follow the coaches practice time schedule...attitude problem...maybe.  I knew best my abilities compared to others...my viewpoint.  Had to work to get spending money, etc. 
Wanted to say that I enjoyed your rebuttals to Pat C.  Good to challenge "higher ups"
Me, I believe Massey  and polls are used by many to provide/support their own, often regional bias, opinions.  Problem comes when the individuals are on selection teams.   I just wait until the end of the season and worry about such things.

[Pat Coleman]

I certainly don't think I'm telling you anything new concerning NESCAC, their single round robin schedule, or their SOS. It's been discussed quite frequently over the years. It just seems like they get a pass despite their non-conference SOS and yet other conferences are held to a higher standard.         

Isn't it more likely that they get a pass because they show up in March year after year? After a decade or so it's fair for a voter to believe that the best NESCAC team is going to show up in the Elite 8, if not the Final Four.

Pat,

This discussion started with a reponse to your statement that Brockport didn't have any wins worthy of consideration. You had also stated, in a separate response to other posters, that Brockport wasn't winning against Top 25 teams. I tried to show that there are other teams in the Top 25 that don't have wins any better than Brockport's. I chose Bowdoin as an example and felt that the 2 teams were fairly close in what was on their resume. I feel that Brockport is every bit as deserving as Bowdoin to merit inclusion in the Top 25. I gave my reasons and believe them to be valid ones. You didn't disagree with my analysis.

You came back with a response to my post, which I admit, was quite long winded (a good defense requires a long explanation ), and you focused on one statement that I made...that I felt our non-conference record was "very good". You implied it wasn't very good by D3 standards. You also told me that, since I liked Massey so much, to look at Massey's SOS for SUNYAC teams.  Again I put forth my reasons why I felt the conference was very good, as well as my rebuttal to your statement that the SUNYAC teams didn't have a good SOS. Once more I used the NESCAC conference as a comparison and thought my facts were supportive of my position.

Your latest response to my last post, focused on my statement..."It just seems like they get a pass despite their non-conference SOS and yet other conferences are held to a higher standard."  You bring up this ... they likely get a pass because their best team, year after year, ends up in the Elite 8 or Final Four. I wasn't talking about the best team in NESCAC and the NCAA tournament. I started this discussion comparing Bowdoin with Brockport and why I thought their resumes were similar.  Bowdoin is getting the pass into the Top 25, since they seem to be lacking the same credentials, that you point out, are keeping Brockport from a Top 25 ranking.

Being the strongest conference of the three and a half in the region is not a particularly high standard. Similarly, the NJAC is the strongest conference of the three in the Atlantic, but that isn't an automatic pass to the Top 25 either.

No it isn't, but I noticed that a 1 loss Richard Stockton team with 17 points jumped over a 1 loss Brockport team and into the Top 25 in week 5.  Stockton lost last week and fell back into the ORV.

Who are the strong non-East teams the SUNYAC has wins against this year?

I'm not going there because you'll just come back and tell me all the teams that I think are strong... aren't strong.

Since you asked me to check out the SOS of the SUNYAC I will go here though.

Current Strength of Schedule ranking according to Massey's Ratings.    Best to worst in each conference by SOS not won-loss records

NESCAC                                                          SUNYAC

Middlebury    90                                              Plattsburgh       23
Amherst        127                                            Buffalo State     42
Williams        179                                            Brockport          71
Tufts             198                                            Oneonta           151
Bowdoin        259
Wesleyan       261                                            New Paltz         160
Bates            293                                            Geneseo           197
Hamilton       298                                            Potsdam           209
Conn. Coll     310                                            Cortland          242
Colby            329                                            Fredonia          279
Trinity           352                                            Oswego           312

It looks like the SUNYAC wins from top to bottom. Plattsburgh currently has the 23rd strongest schedule in all of D3 and we have 3 teams under 100. Middlebury is the only NESCAC team under 100. At the other end of the spectrum we only have 1 team over the dreaded 300 number while the NESCAC has 3 teams that high and another pair close to it.

I'm going to reiterate that a conference proves its strength in March, especially vs. out-of-region competition. NESCAC was 2-0 vs. the SUNYAC in the tournament last year alone. SUNYAC hasn't been to the round of eight since 2007 and hasn't been to the Final Four since the tournament was 32 teams.

You and the guy touting Richard Stockton should have a battle royale on the Top 25 message board and see who can win the "we should be ranked" discussion.

By the way, it's not that the record isn't good. That's just a number. But what does it reflect? Who was it compiled against? Brockport State may well be very good but we don't have a lot of data points to confirm that. The only one we have outside of the SUNYAC that is meaningful to an out-of-region Top 25 voter is a loss to Purchase. Now, after going 15-11 last year, I can understand why creating a schedule that has meaningful Top 25-type opponents on it might be low on the priority list, but that's the way it is.

I'm sorry I don't have time to deliver similarly long-winded responses. I have my hands full with my day job, my family and D3sports.com -- debating on the boards is a lot lower on the list than it used to be.

You're right -- I didn't disagree on Bowdoin vs. Brockport. But as a neutral observer, I can see why a voter would pick the unbeaten team from the NESCAC over a 1-loss team from the SUNYAC. Also, because voters know the NESCAC is a strong conference, they know that a NESCAC upstart team eventually will get tested, where we might not be able to trust that will happen in other conferences.

[AUPepBand]

Pep has said this over on Post Patterns and will reiterate here that polls, to Pep, are meaningless. While it's nice to be noticed, it's more noticeable to be nice. If Brockport State is deserving of Top 25 votes, the Golden Eagles will continue winning...right through to the Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight, Final Four or, heck, to an NCAA title.

The (legendary) Alfred Football Coach Alex Yunevich always told his boys to wait to celebrate when the season's over. The news clippings and accolades and polls don't matter much when you're preparing for the next game.

On Saxon Warriors!

[NYHOOPS8]

I agree with the argument that Brockport should be in the top 25. Their win over Plattsburgh coupled with Plattsburgh's non-conference success should have propelled them into the poll this week.

[thebear]

Brockport is a very good team, they have all the pieces you need to go a long way, not to mention a 7 footer coming off the bench.  They should be ranked.  Their only loss was at Purchase (11-0) in 2OT, and the Eagles took the last shot in each of the first two OT's; one shot either way and that game takes a different outcome. 

Purchase by the way has 7'2" Joel Neri, and D-I size, starting 2 6-3 guards, and 6-6 and 6-7 forwards. 

Would be nice if the SUNY Comprehensives and larger techs formed a bigger conference with 2 divisions and possibly two bids.  In addition to the 10 current SUNYAC schools, Farmingdale, Old Westbury, Purchase, SUNYIT, Morrisville, & Cobleskill are all NCAA schools, which would give 16 schools in East & West Divisions.

[magicman]

I'm going to reiterate that a conference proves its strength in March, especially vs. out-of-region competition. NESCAC was 2-0 vs. the SUNYAC in the tournament last year alone. SUNYAC hasn't been to the round of eight since 2007 and hasn't been to the Final Four since the tournament was 32 teams.

That was last year and has nothing to do with the discussion that was initiated by your original remarks.

You and the guy touting Richard Stockton should have a battle royale on the Top 25 message board and see who can win the "we should be ranked" discussion.

I haven't responded in any way like that guy has about any part of our discussion, Pat. I've alway's treated you with respect, even if we disagree, which we obviously do about Brockport and the SUNYAC this year.

Brockport State may well be very good but we don't have a lot of data points to confirm that. The only one we have outside of the SUNYAC that is meaningful to an out-of-region Top 25 voter is a loss to Purchase. Now, after going 15-11 last year, I can understand why creating a schedule that has meaningful Top 25-type opponents on it might be low on the priority list, but that's the way it is.

Brockport's lack of scheduling any Top 25 teams on their schedule this year, was addressed in my earlier post. It's hard to play Top 25 teams when there are none in your region. Last night Carthage played #21 Wheaton and dealt them their 5th loss.. At what point do we say this team isn't Top 25 worthy?  They were Top 25 worthy at 10-4?...Will they still be Top 25 worthy at 10-5? What about Carthage, now 10-5, with wins over 3 Top 25 teams this year already (and two of those teams were a Top 5 and Top 10. Since they just beat Wheaton will they now get voted into the Top 25? In 10 days they get to play another Top 25 team in IWU. If they win that game will they get voted in? They might and maybe they deserve to be in there with 5 losses but the 7th place team in the SUNYAC, Buffalo State with a 6-6 record, beat Carthage on a neutral court. Then they followed that up by beating North Central the next day. The same North Central team that took #1 Stevens Point right down to the wire and lost 66-64. When you get to play multiple Top 25 teams, several times, because they're in your own conference it's easy to have a "meaningful schedule" that wasn't created by anyone in particular...it was simply handed to you.

Time to end this discussion. I don't like my chances of coming away with a win. Massey has me listed as a 12 point underdog.

[thebear]

+K Magic, and I doubt Pat was fully aware that the Purchase - Brockport game was one roll of the sphere away from going the other way.

[bearnation]

For years the SUNYAC was split in two divisions until the SUNY centers went D 1.  We added SUNYIT and Morrisville.  they left.  This left us with the core 10 colleges.  The powers to be decided on a schedule of home and away 18 games conference schedule.  This was the first time for this in the long history of this great conference.  Having so many conference games cuts in to the ability to schedule non conference out of market games.  Either we stay the course and get no respect or we make changes.  PS finally get to see my Bears Saturday against New Paltz hoping for some great things but I may just be dreaming.  Until my last breathe I will never give up on my Bears.
I agree with Bear if Brockport beat Purchase, Brockport is a top 25 team.  Purchase is undefeated because they also play in a conference that plays 18 conference games with some extremely weak schools they also get no respect and are only ranked 17 with many  schools ranked ahead of them with multiple loses .  I believe if the ball would have rolled in different directions and Brockport beats Purchase,  this would as have been Brockport's fate. Go figure.  Maybe its a popularity contest.

[Pat Coleman]

I'm going to reiterate that a conference proves its strength in March, especially vs. out-of-region competition. NESCAC was 2-0 vs. the SUNYAC in the tournament last year alone. SUNYAC hasn't been to the round of eight since 2007 and hasn't been to the Final Four since the tournament was 32 teams.

That was last year and has nothing to do with the discussion that was initiated by your original remarks.

A Top 25 poll is significantly based on impression and those games absolutely have an impact on the impression of the two conferences.

You and the guy touting Richard Stockton should have a battle royale on the Top 25 message board and see who can win the "we should be ranked" discussion.

I haven't responded in any way like that guy has about any part of our discussion, Pat. I've alway's treated you with respect, even if we disagree, which we obviously do about Brockport and the SUNYAC this year.

Brockport State may well be very good but we don't have a lot of data points to confirm that. The only one we have outside of the SUNYAC that is meaningful to an out-of-region Top 25 voter is a loss to Purchase. Now, after going 15-11 last year, I can understand why creating a schedule that has meaningful Top 25-type opponents on it might be low on the priority list, but that's the way it is.

Brockport's lack of scheduling any Top 25 teams on their schedule this year, was addressed in my earlier post. It's hard to play Top 25 teams when there are none in your region. Last night Carthage played #21 Wheaton and dealt them their 5th loss.. At what point do we say this team isn't Top 25 worthy?  They were Top 25 worthy at 10-4?...Will they still be Top 25 worthy at 10-5? What about Carthage, now 10-5, with wins over 3 Top 25 teams this year already (and two of those teams were a Top 5 and Top 10. Since they just beat Wheaton will they now get voted into the Top 25? In 10 days they get to play another Top 25 team in IWU. If they win that game will they get voted in? They might and maybe they deserve to be in there with 5 losses but the 7th place team in the SUNYAC, Buffalo State with a 6-6 record, beat Carthage on a neutral court. Then they followed that up by beating North Central the next day. The same North Central team that took #1 Stevens Point right down to the wire and lost 66-64. When you get to play multiple Top 25 teams, several times, because they're in your own conference it's easy to have a "meaningful schedule" that wasn't created by anyone in particular...it was simply handed to you.

Time to end this discussion. I don't like my chances of coming away with a win. Massey has me listed as a 12 point underdog.

I believe Carthage has two wins against current Top 25 teams ... and they have five losses. So they will present an interesting case for voters. And here's an idea -- play teams outside the East Region. There are only 30-some teams in the region and about 370 outside of it, so perhaps there are worthy opponents out there. Play in a holiday tournament somewhere warm (heck, come to Vegas!) or play someone in the OAC or the Mid-Atlantic. Those are all games that count in the primary criteria these days. (And the Pennsylvania teams have been in-region for about a decade.)

+K Magic, and I doubt Pat was fully aware that the Purchase - Brockport game was one roll of the sphere away from going the other way.

You mean, just like any other OT game?

[amh63]

Magicman.....Thanks for the more than anticipated response +k ....have  responded here to also reduce your traveling time.  Crossing boards can be enjoyable to me and also to others.  Had a cross board discussion with AUPep on football once and somehow ended up on the subject of Columbia Un. in Spanish Harlem!   As you probably know, my connection with Vandy74 is with Amherst and with Middhoops via his family connection with Vandy and so it goes.  Bucket knows one of my sons during his time working in D.C..  Old Guy is another matter.  Yes, he is around your age..let Middhoops provide the answer.  My connection to Old Guy is via a mutual Amherst player...now actor and Union President...Ken Howard who was in the class of '66 at Amherst.  Old Guy fondly remembers playing against Ken on the BB court.  Ken Howard was a freshman when I was a senior...a 6'5" forward then.  The taller players that played freshman ball often left the team and played fraternity ball instead.  My 6'9" freshman classmate center play with me on our frat team.  We even tried to recruit the 6'10" center the following year to our frat team...but alas he went to a rival frat.  Oh yes, Ken Howard played the BB coach in the TV series "White Shadow"...you may recall.
Last connection note.....ECSU lives in Newtown CT..wife and family neighborhood.  He is a strong supporter of his college and therefore knows the school president...and her husband.  The husband is a classmate of mine and I have met his wife as well.  Sorry about this digression.