NCAA Tournament

[BruinFan]

The great northwest is a beautiful place to live, but stinks when it comes to the distance from the rest of the D3 world. I assume geography is the only reason for the following facts.

These are teams from the same conference and when they would meet each other in the tournament.

Mary Washington/Marymount (Final 4)
McDaniel/Muhlenberg/Gettysburg  (Elite 8 between the MC's and finals against GC)
IWU/Elmhurst (Championship Game)
Messiah/Lebanon Valley  (Championship Game)
Utica/Ithaca  (Elite 8)
Moravian/Scranton (Championship Game)
Western Conn./S. Maine  (Championship Game)
Hope/Calvin  (Elite 8)
Amherst/Bowdoin/Colby/Tufts/Williams  (Sweet 16 or E8 depending schools)
Kean/William Patterson  (Championship Game)
Thomas More/Washington and Jefferson (Sweet 16)
Farmingdale/Mount St. Mary  (Elite 8)
WashU/Chicago/Rochester  (Final 4 or Championship Game)
Whitewater/Stevens Point (Championship Game)

Washington and Lee/Roanoke  (Round 2)
George Fox/Univ. Puget Sound  (Round 2)

OK, so the ODAC is in the same situation this year as the NWC. The difference is that Washington and Lee was not listed in the regional rankings going into the conference tournament. UPS and GFU were ranked #1 and #2 in the west region and the only D3 losses UPS has this year is against George Fox (3 times).

This used to bother me a little, but after listing all the other conferences with multiple entries and noticing that many teams don't see each other until deep in the tournament, it is hard to accept that something can't be done for the Northwest Conference.

My other rant is that none of the other teams in the tournament with 2 losses or less have to play another school with less than 4 losses. I realize that the overall record does not tell the whole story as to a team's strength, but still both George Fox and Louisiana College have to be thinking the first round pairing did not exactly reward them for outstanding seasons.

Thanks for listening. 

[Ralph Turner]

Neat videos of the Minnesota-Morris team finding out they're going to the NCAA Tournament. Apparently their coach called them to the gym and many of them didn't know why:

http://www.morris.umn.edu/athletics/View.php?itemID=10003

Twice he used the term, "national tournament".

[Ralph Turner]

The great northwest is a beautiful place to live, but stinks when it comes to the distance from the rest of the D3 world. I assume geography is the only reason for the following facts.

These are teams from the same conference and when they would meet each other in the tournament.

Mary Washington/Marymount (Final 4)
McDaniel/Muhlenberg/Gettysburg  (Elite 8 between the MC's and finals against GC)
IWU/Elmhurst (Championship Game)
Messiah/Lebanon Valley  (Championship Game)
Utica/Ithaca  (Elite 8)
Moravian/Scranton (Championship Game)
Western Conn./S. Maine  (Championship Game)
Hope/Calvin  (Elite 8)
Amherst/Bowdoin/Colby/Tufts/Williams  (Sweet 16 or E8 depending schools)
Kean/William Patterson  (Championship Game)
Thomas More/Washington and Jefferson (Sweet 16)
Farmingdale/Mount St. Mary  (Elite 8)
WashU/Chicago/Rochester  (Final 4 or Championship Game)
Whitewater/Stevens Point (Championship Game)

Washington and Lee/Roanoke  (Round 2)
George Fox/Univ. Puget Sound  (Round 2)

OK, so the ODAC is in the same situation this year as the NWC. The difference is that Washington and Lee was not listed in the regional rankings going into the conference tournament. UPS and GFU were ranked #1 and #2 in the west region and the only D3 losses UPS has this year is against George Fox (3 times).

This used to bother me a little, but after listing all the other conferences with multiple entries and noticing that many teams don't see each other until deep in the tournament, it is hard to accept that something can't be done for the Northwest Conference.

My other rant is that none of the other teams in the tournament with 2 losses or less have to play another school with less than 4 losses. I realize that the overall record does not tell the whole story as to a team's strength, but still both George Fox and Louisiana College have to be thinking the first round pairing did not exactly reward them for outstanding seasons.

Thanks for listening.  

I have to believe that part of the reason that the NWC moved to the NCAA was that the Presidents got tired of raising their own money to send teams to the NAIA post-season events.

This discussion about Louisiana College and the failure of the ASC to get a Pool C bid was that the conference was down this season, and that Roanoke was above anyone else in the region.  I heard conjecture that Roanoke sat at the table thru more than 15 rounds.

If GFU makes it to the next round, and the other games fall right, then there is a chance for GFU to host the Sweet 16.  I honestly believe that that is how HPU won its national championship in 2008, by catching Desales and Hope at home in the second weekend.

The national pundits believe that the ASC is down this season, so Lousiana College's record may be a little misleading.  I do not believe that the McMurry team that took LC to OT in the conference playoff finals is nearly as good as the 2007 McMurry team that lost to UPS 59-47 in the first round.

We shall see.

[BruinFan]

George Fox, like many others now, does provide video of their games. So assuming that the technology works OK and there aren't any NCAA restrictions against it, those in the ASC can watch the game online.

Tip-off will be 7 PM PST.

[weiser]

I know it is time to move on and start looking at the match-ups but I would love to have someone try to explain to me Williams over Capital.

In doing more research, here is what is true
Williams finished Tied for 3rd in a 10 team conference......however there conference schedule is only 9 games.  AND, they lost in the quarterfinals of their tournament.....to what seemingly was the ONLY team from that conference that did not get a bid.

Capital wins Conference (15-3) and loses to the number 2 seed in the conference finals.  (Mount Union)

Any thoughts or explanations would be much appreciated.   Also....hypothetical question......If Cap wins the OAC tourney.......Does Mount Union 24-4 get an at large???

[deiscanton]

Weiser--

When considering Pool C bids, the NCAA doesn't care where a team finishes in the conference standings.   The whole resume, both conference and non-conference in region games is taken into account when looking at a tourney resume for Pool C consideration.  All the NCAA cares about those teams is that those teams did not get the automatic bids from their respective conferences.

See the UAA last year on the women's side for an example-- Last year, the second, third, and fifth place teams in the UAA  (Rochester, NYU, Brandeis)  got Pool C bids, while the fourth place team, Chicago, did not.

Update:  In 2008-2009, Rochester went 22-3 in region  (11-3 UAA, 10-0 in region non conference), NYU went 21-4 in region  (10-4 UAA, 11-0 in region non conference),  Brandeis went 17-7 in region  (7-7 UAA, 10-0 in region non conference), and Chicago went 17-8 in region  (8-6 UAA, 9-2 in region non conference).

That being said, here was Capital's tourney resume at the selection process

BTW, the loss to Mt Union in the OAC title game dropped Capital out of the regional rankings in the Great Lakes region and Capital was not regionally ranked when it came time to select Pool C's.

Capital  (Not regionally ranked in Great Lakes)

19-7 in region-- .731 regional percentage

Strength of schedule-- .543 according to the NCAA

Record vs regionally ranked opponents  1-3 (.250)  (NCAA had it at 0-1-- I don't know where they got that number).

Win vs Mt Union

Losses vs Washington and Jefferson (once),  Mt Union (twice)

Compare that to Williams's tourney resume

Williams  18-6 in region  .750 regional percentage  (#5 in Northeast at time of selection)

Strength of schedule-- .619

Record vs regionally ranked opponents is 3-4  (.375)

Wins over Rensselaer  (RPI regionally ranked in the East region-- within 200 miles of Williams), Bowdoin, Tufts

Losses vs W. Connecticut, Colby, Amherst (2 losses)  (Eastern Connecticut dropped out of the final regional rankings as a result of their loss in the Little East tourney).

On primary criteria,  Williams gets the Pool C, and it is not close.

D3Hoops.com erroneously had Williams at 2-5-- still having Eastern Connecticut regionally ranked and dropping Skidmore from the regional rankings.   While the dropping of Skidmore as a regionally ranked win was correct, this meant that RPI got regionally ranked in the East as a result of winning the Liberty League AQ.  Williams played RPI in December and got the victory then.  D3Hoops.com should have credited the Williams win over RPI as a regionally ranked victory, preserving the 3 wins for Williams vs regionally ranked opposition.

Had Williams truly been 2-5 vs regionally ranked opposition, I could have seen going to secondary criteria to make the decision between Williams and Capital.

[saratoga]

Not that it makes a difference at this point but, I'm just wondering why Scranton wasn't sent to either Ithaca's or Messiah's site?
Since Desales has a record of 18-9, I could see them being sent to Marymount & the Lady Royals going to the much closer Ithaca site. Or, instead of the first time tourney bound Neumann team getting to be within an hour or so of their campus, send them off to the DC area & put the Lady Royals back in a matchup with the Lady Falcons.
Just wondering what the rationale might have been. I'm sure many teams have similar questions. Good luck to all.

[deiscanton]

As for Mt Union, the fact that the OAC plays 18 conference games would have hurt Mt Union's Pool C chances.

Mt Union did not play any regionally ranked opponents outside of conference, and therefore the only regionally ranked opponent on Mt Union's schedule this season would have been Capital as of the OAC tourney.

Had Mt Union lost to Capital in the OAC final,  Mt Union would have been at 21-5 in region with a strength of schedule just barely over .500 and a 1-2 record vs regionally ranked opposition  (the 1-2 being vs Capital)

In this regard, Mt Union in the Great Lakes would have been just like Babson in the Northeast--  Both teams having a great in region winning percentage, but not a strong one due to the fact that most of the games played on both team schedules were conference games with no regionally ranked opponents in the few non conference games that were played.

In short, only the winner of the OAC tourney would have made it to the NCAAs in my opinion-- and if the OAC were a South region conference, then Mt Union may have made a better case of being in an isolated geographical region in Division III women's hoop.--

[ronk]

Not that it makes a difference at this point but, I'm just wondering why Scranton wasn't sent to either Ithaca's or Messiah's site?
Since Desales has a record of 18-9, I could see them being sent to Marymount & the Lady Royals going to the much closer Ithaca site. Or, instead of the first time tourney bound Neumann team getting to be within an hour or so of their campus, send them off to the DC area & put the Lady Royals back in a matchup with the Lady Falcons.
Just wondering what the rationale might have been. I'm sure many teams have similar questions. Good luck to all.

They were accommodating me, since I'll only have a 45 min trip, instead of 6 hours

[Pat Coleman]

Deis -- we would have had to have known the contents of the secret regional ranking at that point in order to do so. Our secret regional ranking had NYU in that spot.

I think when you get to the bottom of Pool C, secondary criteria should always be in play.

[saratoga]

Ronk: and to think I believed the selection committee had it wrong. Good for you...enjoy!
From what I hear, you'll need to get there early as the Marymount gym is supposidly a band box.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Wash U in a much tighter game than I would have expected late.

[BruinFan]

I believed it when I saw the bracket, and nothing happened in the first round to change my mind. I think the championship game will be played between the winners of the bottom brackets.

I just think each of those brackets have 2-3 teams that will prevail over any of the teams that come out of the upper brackets.

I'm looking forward to the many games about to be played tonight. Best of luck to all.

[deiscanton]

Sectionals will be announced today:

Here are the sites that, by seeding, I feel should be most likely to host sectionals-- 3 of them are not even close, but I am not sure if the NCAA will fly 3 teams to the 4th sectional site.

3 of the 4 sectional sites announced today should be Amherst, Kean, and Illinois Wesleyan.

By seeding, the fourth site should be in Oregon at George Fox, since the George Fox Bruins have only lost 1 regional game all season (to Cal Lutheran), while Wash U has lost two in-region games (at Illinois Wesleyan and at Rochester, respectively.)

Question is:  Does the NCAA pay to fly 3 teams to Oregon this year?   In the interests of a competitive bracket, the NCAA should do so--  Giving the 4th sectional site to Wash U may make more sense economically, but it does not make as much sense from a competitive standpoint.

Updated answer as of 11:20 AM Eastern:  NCAA has just notified Wash U that they will be hosting a sectional.   It made more sense to fly 2 teams and bus Carthage than to fly 3 teams to Oregon from an economic standpoint.

Amherst has been notified that they are hosting a sectional as well.

The sectional hosts will probably be Amherst, Kean, Illinois Wesleyan and Wash U.

However, this is bad for George Fox from a competitive standpoint--  Wash U has to be a favorite now to win out next weekend and to go back to the Final Four at Illinois Wesleyan, as it is very hard to defeat the Bears in St Louis even if you are the defending national champion and have a 6-5 freshman center in the paint.

Note:  Edited for clarity.

[BruinFan]

Sectionals will be announced today:

Here are the sites that, by seeding, I feel should be most likely to host sectionals-- 3 of them are not even close, but I am not sure if the NCAA will fly 3 teams to the 4th sectional site.

3 of the 4 sectional sites announced today should be Amherst, Kean, and Illinois Wesleyan.

By seeding, the fourth site should be in Oregon at George Fox, since the George Fox Bruins have only lost 1 regional game all season (to Cal Lutheran), while Wash U has lost two in-region games (at Illinois Wesleyan and at Rochester, respectively.)

Question is:  Does the NCAA pay to fly 3 teams to Oregon this year?   In the interests of a competitive bracket, the NCAA should do so--  Giving the 4th sectional site to Wash U may make more sense economically, but it does not make as much sense from a competitive standpoint.

Updated answer as of 11:20 AM Eastern:  NCAA has just notified Wash U that they will be hosting a sectional.   It made more sense to fly 2 teams and bus Carthage than to fly 3 teams to Oregon from an economic standpoint.

Amherst has been notified that they are hosting a sectional as well.

The sectional hosts will probably be Amherst, Kean, Illinois Wesleyan and Wash U.

However, this is bad for George Fox from a competitive standpoint--  Wash U has to be a favorite now to go back to the Final Four at Illinois Wesleyan next weekend, as it is very hard to defeat the Bears in St Louis even if you are the defending national champion and have a 6-5 freshman center in the paint.

Deis,
Thanks for the supportive rationale for George Fox hosting a sectional. As long as the current criteria exists with geography and travel considerations, it appears it will take 3 other teams in the sectional being all 500+ miles from each other before they would fly everyone to Oregon.  This is not a reality that those in the Northwest like living with, but what can you do? The common sentiment last night after defeating the University of Puget Sound for the 4th time this year (and 12 out of 15 over the last four years) was that the Bruins would be traveling to St. Louis.

I wonder how much money is saved in the grand scheme of everything between 3 flights versus 2 flights and 1 bus trip?