MBB: University Athletic Association

[bouttime]

Dave "d-mac" McHugh --

I presented the data from Massey as well.  I dont know exactly what criteria goes into this rating but "at least I am presenting another fact to the argument." WIAC and CCIW are not in the top 3 in either Massey rating (regular or MOV). Additionally I said nothing about the 0.500 benchmark in my comment, I was talking about the overall out of conference record for the UAA, and the UAA has the best out of conference record in the country (UAA: 70-18 (Massey incorrectly counts Emory's exhibition loss to davidson and NYU won tonight), 0.795; NESCAC: 92-27, 0.773; ODAC 47-21, 0.691; CCIW: 60-28, 0.682, and WIAC, 51-27, 0.654).

Additionally, since you are so adamant about this top to bottom argument, how can you put the WIAC ahead of the UAA when they have a team that is 3-11.

The arguement that started this is debate was that every team in the UAA was above .500 - thus they should be considered the best conference in the nation.

With the start of UAA play underway, I think it should be noted of the rediculous non-conference record racked up by UAA teams. 69-14. As of today, all teams in the UAA are above .500. Also there are 3 (hopefully 4) teams in the top 25. With numbers like that, I dare anyone to name a better conference top to bottom in the country.

I took the dare... and named the CCIW and the WIAC. The reason I took the WIAC over the UAA right now is because I feel that they are a stronger conference from top-to-bottom than the UAA, at this time.

And I am willing to bet that will change as we get further into conference action!

I also pointed out that my thoughts on the fact may change.

The fact that all UAA teams was not my sole arguement for them being the best conference in the country. You need to take the other points that I made (non-conference record, teams with national ranking) into consideration as well. Even though there are other conferences that have 4 teams in the top 25, there is not another conference in the country with 3 teams in the top 5. I also agree with the points made by hugenerd reguarding the Massey rankings and the WIAC having a 3-11 team.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Not a serious rebuttal, but the WIAC's 3-11 team is in 9th place.  I have it on good authority that the UAA's 9th place team is 0 for forever!

[Ralph Turner]

Not a serious rebuttal, but the WIAC's 3-11 team is in 9th place.  I have it on good authority that the UAA's 9th place team is 0 for forever!

The UAA's 9th team is now playing in the Centennial!   

[Hugenerd]

Not a serious rebuttal, but the WIAC's 3-11 team is in 9th place.  I have it on good authority that the UAA's 9th place team is 0 for forever!

The UAA's 9th team is now playing in the Centennial!   

But they still have a winning record (7-6 and they would actually be the 9th place team in the UAA right now with that record)! Also, they would be undefeated in the UAA (1-0), which shows great parity!

(JHU was in the UAA until the 2000-2001 season)

[Hugenerd]

The arguement that started this is debate was that every team in the UAA was above .500 - thus they should be considered the best conference in the nation.

As a matter of fact, this comment is completely false.  This argument started when you decided to pick this point out of the 3 points that bouttime made - out of conference record, rankings (3 teams in top 5 and 4 in top 25), and that all teams are over 0.500. (See below)  I additionally made several other arguments regarding the Massey ratings and the records of the teams at the bottom of your top conferences.

With the start of UAA play underway, I think it should be noted of the rediculous non-conference record racked up by UAA teams. 69-14. As of today, all teams in the UAA are above .500. Also there are 3 (hopefully 4) teams in the top 25. With numbers like that, I dare anyone to name a better conference top to bottom in the country.

Just because your post focused on the fact that all teams are over 0.500, doesnt mean the argument started there, or if you wish to believe it started only with this point, you, in that case, are the one who started the argument focusing only on this point. (See below)

Well, the ODAC, WIAC, and CCIW all have three teams in the Top 25 (with the WIAC having one team sitting at #26).

Your arguement certainly shows how strong the top of the UAA is. However, I think the WIAC and the CCIW are stronger below the top three or four teams. While the UAA's records for all their teams are above .500 you might want to take a look at other conferences before using that example as being the top conference.

The CCIW also has all over their 8 squads above .500; the NESCAC (home of Amherst and Williams) has 9 of their squads above .500; 7 or the 9 teams in the WIAC are above .500; and 7 of the 10 teams in the ODAC are above .500; heck, 7 of the 9 teams in the Empire 8 are above .500. (I may have missed other conferences, only concentrated on any in the Top 25.)

That all being said, just because a conference has all of their squads - or a majority of them - above .500 doesn't truely indicate how good a conference is top to bottom. If the team at the bottom is above .500 but has had a cupcake schedule... should that count equally to a team with a much tougher schedule?

Another arguement to why I wouldn't put the entire UAA at #1:
The CCIW has all of their teams above .500 and have also shown early in the season they all can beat each other. (Every team in the CCIW is 1-1 in conference at the time of this post.) That shows that the CCIW teams are not only enjoying winning records... but ANY team beat ANY team in the CCIW. Can the UAA really say its conference has that much parity?

While I agree the UAA has shown they are a very good conference, I don't know if I can say they are the top conference on the simple arguement that they have all of their teams above .500.

Just to put it out there, my rankings (based on my opinion on what I see with records and results) for this season:
1 - CCIW
2 - WIAC
3 - UAA
4 - NESCAC
5 - ODAC

And I am willing to bet that will change as we get further into conference action!

You in fact write the number "0.500" 10 times in this post, clearly emphasizing it more than any other point (for what reason it is not clear because bouttime emphasized all 3 points equally, stating each once).

Also, to correct bouttime, there are no other conferences with 4 teams in the top 25 currently (WIAC, CCIW, and ODAC all have 3, the WIAC is close tp 4 with a team at #26). He is also correct that no conference comes close to the rankings of the top 3 UAA teams (1, 2, 5).  CCIW's ranked teams  are 9, 12, 18; WIACs ranked teams are 10, 11, 16; and, ODAC ranked teams are 17, 22, 25. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

With the start of UAA play underway, I think it should be noted of the rediculous non-conference record racked up by UAA teams. 69-14. As of today, all teams in the UAA are above .500. Also there are 3 (hopefully 4) teams in the top 25. With numbers like that, I dare anyone to name a better conference top to bottom in the country.

Sure... I picked out one number and then commented on the other two.

You know my arguement for above .500. However... three teams in the Top 5 is impressive (and four in the Top 25), but only points out the top half of the conference. There is no "poll" that ranks ALL teams in the nation and I would - and have - argued that the bottom half of the UAA isn't as strong as the CCIW or WIAC (no disrespect to my friend, Coach McGrath).

So for the fun of it, I checked the opponents winning percentage for the bottom team in the UAA and the CCIW:
Case Western Reserve - 48-93 (.340)
North Central - 74-57 (.565) - with one team not counted (World Harvest Bible, yes you read that right) because I couldn't get their record (do they exist?)

I would hope the teams like Case Western would have an above .500 winning percentage with their opponents winning percentage that low.
And I will be honest, North Central surprised me a bit.

Now... ALL of that being said... I didn't take the time to figure out the opponent opponent's winning percentage - which might have shed even more light on all of this.

Also, the original comment stated that the UAA had a non-conference record of 68-14. That works out to a winning percentage of .829. In the CCIW (since they are the ones I am making the arguement as number one for), they are 72-26 (with two more teams than the CCIW). That works out to a winning percentage of .735 - still pretty respectable.

But I also pointed out that this can be skewed. The CCIW and WIAC play in regions were the competition is tough that other regions. Rochester, I would argue, doesn't play in a region or against non-conference opponents that are as tough.

Anyway... I stick by assertion that from top to bottom - I think the UAA is not the top conference... but certainly one of the top three conference in the country. And... I am moving on!

[Gregory Sager]

North Central - 74-57 (.565) - with one team not counted (World Harvest Bible, yes you read that right) because I couldn't get their record (do they exist?)

Yes, the Harvesters (or whatever they call themselves) exist. I have seen them in the flesh. In fact, they are the only men's college basketball team with a female head coach that I have ever seen.

But the WHBC team consists of a bunch of unrecruited non-scholarship Bible college students. They all basically show up for a tryout at the beginning of the season, and go from there. That should tell you all you need to know about how good WHBC is.

(To be fair to North Central, the only reason why WHBC was in the Cards' tipoff tourney was because UW-LaCrosse reneged this fall on a signed contract to appear in that tourney, leaving NCC head coach Todd Raridon to scramble to find a last-minute replacement.)

[Hugenerd]

With the start of UAA play underway, I think it should be noted of the rediculous non-conference record racked up by UAA teams. 69-14. As of today, all teams in the UAA are above .500. Also there are 3 (hopefully 4) teams in the top 25. With numbers like that, I dare anyone to name a better conference top to bottom in the country.

Sure... I picked out one number and then commented on the other two.

You know my arguement for above .500. However... three teams in the Top 5 is impressive (and four in the Top 25), but only points out the top half of the conference. There is no "poll" that ranks ALL teams in the nation and I would - and have - argued that the bottom half of the UAA isn't as strong as the CCIW or WIAC (no disrespect to my friend, Coach McGrath).

So for the fun of it, I checked the opponents winning percentage for the bottom team in the UAA and the CCIW:
Case Western Reserve - 48-93 (.340)
North Central - 74-57 (.565) - with one team not counted (World Harvest Bible, yes you read that right) because I couldn't get their record (do they exist?)

I would hope the teams like Case Western would have an above .500 winning percentage with their opponents winning percentage that low.
And I will be honest, North Central surprised me a bit.

Now... ALL of that being said... I didn't take the time to figure out the opponent opponent's winning percentage - which might have shed even more light on all of this.

Also, the original comment stated that the UAA had a non-conference record of 68-14. That works out to a winning percentage of .829. In the CCIW (since they are the ones I am making the arguement as number one for), they are 72-26 (with two more teams than the CCIW). That works out to a winning percentage of .735 - still pretty respectable.

But I also pointed out that this can be skewed. The CCIW and WIAC play in regions were the competition is tough that other regions. Rochester, I would argue, doesn't play in a region or against non-conference opponents that are as tough.

Anyway... I stick by assertion that from top to bottom - I think the UAA is not the top conference... but certainly one of the top three conference in the country. And... I am moving on!

Agreed

[Rhodes Scholar]

North Central - 74-57 (.565) - with one team not counted (World Harvest Bible, yes you read that right) because I couldn't get their record (do they exist?)

Yes, the Harvesters (or whatever they call themselves) exist. I have seen them in the flesh. In fact, they are the only men's college basketball team with a female head coach that I have ever seen.

But the WHBC team consists of a bunch of unrecruited non-scholarship Bible college students. They all basically show up for a tryout at the beginning of the season, and go from there. That should tell you all you need to know about how good WHBC is.

(To be fair to North Central, the only reason why WHBC was in the Cards' tipoff tourney was because UW-LaCrosse reneged this fall on a signed contract to appear in that tourney, leaving NCC head coach Todd Raridon to scramble to find a last-minute replacement.)

World Harvest Bible College is one of the few schools that doesn't turn up in Massey's rankings. When I went to North Central's entry, Massey had them playing Northwestern, IA not WHBC. In fact Massey has North Central losing to Northwestern, IA twice this year when in fact the two teams haven't played. Needless to say, his rating of NC is off the mark.

Although I couldn't find WHBC's record, I did find out they are a former member of the USCAA and their nickname is the Warriors.

[ILive4This]

okay so I would really like to get the convo going to this weekend's matchups, especially since the game of the week if not the season is perhaps in our conference this weekend. Although with a tough game for Brandeis in Pittsburgh on Friday, who knows...

[Hoop Dreams]

Chicago has enrolled a pair of 6'7" teammates from very successful St. Xavier High in Cincinnati.
http://athletics.uchicago.edu/news0708/mbk-newcomers-011708.htm

And apparently the star of this St. Xavier team is headed for Loyola-Chicago.
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/preps/2007/08/st-xs-gibler-to-loyola.asp

[bouttime]

okay so I would really like to get the convo going to this weekend's matchups, especially since the game of the week if not the season is perhaps in our conference this weekend. Although with a tough game for Brandeis in Pittsburgh on Friday, who knows...

The atmosphere in Skibo on Friday night for the CMU-Brandeis game should be awesome. There is a great deal of excitement on campus and I look for it to be a packed house. Links to both the CMU radio broadcast and LiveStats of the game can be found here.


http://www.cmu.edu/athletics/intercollegiate-sports/mens-teams/basketball/schedules/index.html

[Hugenerd]

Chicago has enrolled a pair of 6'7" teammates from very successful St. Xavier High in Cincinnati.
http://athletics.uchicago.edu/news0708/mbk-newcomers-011708.htm

And apparently the star of this St. Xavier team is headed for Loyola-Chicago.
http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/preps/2007/08/st-xs-gibler-to-loyola.asp

I played high school ball in cincy and St.X and Moeller are always packed with talent.  Good pickups for Chicago. 

St. X's star from a couple years back, Johnny Wolf, played two seasons at Xavier University before transfering to UNCW this year because Drew Lavender transferred from Oklahoma to Xavier and took all his minutes.

[ILive4This]

I must say the Carnegie SID does a great job with his game notes. Only thing I would have liked to see is how they match up with their opponents this weekend, like who leads in the series, last 10 matchups, probable starters etc.

[Hugenerd]

I must say the Carnegie SID does a great job with his game notes. Only thing I would have liked to see is how they match up with their opponents this weekend, like who leads in the series, last 10 matchups, probable starters etc.

In the last 10 games (aka last 5 years), CMU holds an 8-2 head-to-head advantage over Brandeis and a 6-4 head-to-head advantage over NYU.  CMU split with both NYU and Brandeis last year.  However, CMU has not gone 4-0 against these two teams in the past 5 years, nor has CMU gone less than 2-2. 

CMU results vs. BU and NYU

BU
06-07: 1-1
05-06: 2-0
04-05: 1-1
03-04: 2-0
02-03: 2-0

NYU
06-07: 1-1
05-06: 1-1
04-05: 2-0
03-04: 1-1
02-03: 1-1

CMU is 4-1 at home versus both NYU and Brandeis in the past 5 seasons (they lost at home to NYU in 05-06 and to Brandeis in 04-05).