MBB: University Athletic Association

[martin]

Chicago anounced its recruits - three incoming, all from the Chicago area.  Press release is at:
http://athletics.uchicago.edu/news0506/mbk-newcomers-060806.htm

Pancratz comes from a basketball family.  His father Andy went to DePaul and helped bring the team back to prominence along with Dave Corzine.  DePaul had been in the dumps.  Ray Meyer convinced Pancratz (a 6-9 all stater at Hersey High School) to come to DePaul in 1972.  His teammate at Hersey, Dave Corzine, came to DePaul two year later.  DePaul made the NCAA tournament (then 32 teams) in 1976.  After that, Mark Agguire, Terry Cummings, etc.

The two older Pancratz  brothers both play D1 - Andy at Wisconsin-Milwaukee and Zach at Northern Illinois.  His brothers went to college for free so I guess they can shell out for Jake.  Andy and Zach led Schaumburg to a state championship in 2001 - beating Thornwood with Eddy Curry in the championship game.  Jake took Schaumburg downstate this year but they lost in the quartefinals.

Marek Kowalewski (Burbank, Ill./ Reavis) was a two-time all-conference selection for Reavis High School. The 6'6" Kowalewski averaged 14.5 points and 8.0 rebounds per game as a senior. A three-time letterwinner, Kowalewski graduated fifth in his class.

Jake Pancratz (Hoffman Estates, Ill./ Schaumburg) garnered third-team all-state honors and was a two-time all-area and all-conference pick for Schaumburg High School, which notched a 21-8 record and an IHSA Elite Eight appearance in 2006. A two-year team captain and MVP and four-year member of the SHS honor roll, the 6'1" Pancratz averaged 14 points, three rebounds, and three assists during his senior campaign.

John Kinsella (Chicago, Ill./ U. of Chicago Lab School) received special mention all-state and first-team all-conference accolades as the University of Chicago Laboratory School posted an 18-7 record this past season. The 6'4" Kinsella averaged 19 points, six rebounds, and four assists per contest in 2005-06 en route to being selected team MVP for the second straight year.

[Pat Coleman]

Daily Dose readers got the names a couple weeks ago, just FYI.

http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/?p=184#comment-3164

[formerd3db]

martin:
Re: Pancratz.  That is great that he chose U of C and great for U of C as well.  Just curious, though - did he not get attention from some of the DI schools and/or did he not want to follow in his other brothers' footsteps at one of their schools and perhaps wanted to blaze his own way in college and/or did he just prefer the "upper level" of DIII?

[martin]

Pat - I saw the post on the Daily Dose.  I thought that when Chicago officially announced its class, it would include some kids from outside the Chicago area.  Last year, only 2 of the 16 kids on the UofC roster were from Illinois.  It was a surprise to me when the announcement just included the three kids from the Chicago area.

fprmer3db - I plan on posting to the CCIW board to get some more information on Pancratz.  There has been some posting there about him already - with suggestions that he is Chicago's best recruit since Derek Reich.  I want to find out more about the decision making process of a kid like Pancratz and others like him.  He is arguably the best informed (about the demands and abilities of the various levels of collegiate hoops) D3 recruit is some time.   

[martin]

This was on the chicagohoops site -

Glenbrook North Star Jon Radtke Decides To Play College Basketball For Case Western Reserve University

His last names is mispelled - should be Radke.  First name is usually Jonathan,  He is 6-5  210. 

A strong team that won the Illinois championship in 2005 and and lost in the quarterfinals to the eventual champion this year.  The star, 6-6 guard Jon Scheyer, is off to Duke.  The other forward,  Tyler Cullitan, is heading to Lawrence. A guard from the 2005 GBN championship team, Sean Wallis, played 18 minutes a game for Wash U last season.  Zach Kelly, the center, will be joining him at Wash U this fall.  The other starter, guard Matt Shamis, is off to Lehigh.

[Wydown Blvd.]

Pretty interesting for so many members of that team to be in the UAA...

[Gregory Sager]

It's pretty predictable, actually. Glenbrook North is one of the premier high schools in the state, if not the entire midwest. Their average test scores are through the roof. Glenview and Northbrook are towns where everyone has a lot of money, and where funding state-of-the-art schools is considered to be an investment in the future of their children.

Kids from north suburban schools such as Glenbrook North, Glenbrook South, New Trier, Lake Forest, Deerfield, etc., tend to end up at places like Stanford, Northwestern, Bucknell, Colgate, the Ivies ... and the UAA schools. Since D3 athletics come much closer to being a natural extension of the student body than is the case on the scholarship levels of intercollegiate sports, it's only logical that UAA schools would find student-athletes at Glenbrook North and its neighboring high schools.

[Wydown Blvd.]

hmmmm, well I would assume that more of those players would go Ivy league then....I wouldnt assume that d3 fits so many of them. similarly, I dont think that Wash U in particular is always able to continuously recruit from one school. And, because one of their players is playing for Duke (and because they won the state title two years ago), then they all have had national exposure....I think that Patriot league and Ivy league would be where these students look to play. 3 of their starters playing in the same league out of a possible 15+ other schools (based on the schools you listed and the patriot league), I still think is interesting.... but I agree Glenbrook North is trying to become a feeder school into the UAA in many sports.

[coocooforcoekohawk]

hmmmm, well I would assume that more of those players would go Ivy league then....I wouldnt assume that d3 fits so many of them. similarly,

I would say that d3 would fit the majority of  Glenbrook North students.  I graduated from Hinsdale Central where over ninety percent of the students with a Red Devil diploma go on to graduate from a four year colege or university.  Let's say that the top 35% of Glenbrook North students go to Stanford, Bucknell, the Ivy League.  Let's also say that 15% of the kids can't hack it in higher education.  (Correct me if I'm wrong but I think both percentages I have used are generous, meaning I think that less than 15% of the student body couldn't get through college).  That leaves fifty percent of the student body, or more, to draw student athletes, whose parents are loaded. 

Division III as a whole needs to market it self to these parents who want to "invest" in their children's future.  Am I wrong, doesn't the average division III school provide a much better ecucation than the average division I university?

My own personal experience illustrates this.  My cousin went to Glenbrook North and I Hinsdale.  We are the same age.  He was considered a better student than me our entire childhood.  He even skipped a grade in grade school.  I graduated with less than a C average from high school.  He went to Universtiy of Kentucky and I went to Coe College.   I graduated with a B.A. and he never got a degree.   

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Yes, I'm sure that is scientifically verifiable.


Although, I totally agree with you.  D1 sucks.

[Gregory Sager]

hmmmm, well I would assume that more of those players would go Ivy league then....I wouldnt assume that d3 fits so many of them. similarly, I dont think that Wash U in particular is always able to continuously recruit from one school. And, because one of their players is playing for Duke (and because they won the state title two years ago), then they all have had national exposure....I think that Patriot league and Ivy league would be where these students look to play. 3 of their starters playing in the same league out of a possible 15+ other schools (based on the schools you listed and the patriot league), I still think is interesting.... but I agree Glenbrook North is trying to become a feeder school into the UAA in many sports.

You're assuming that Ivy League and Patriot League schools were recruiting those various Glenbrook North players aside from Shamis, which may not be the case. Also, being Jon Scheyer's teammate doesn't necessarily translate into "national exposure". The schools that were recruiting Scheyer (Duke, Illinois, Michigan State, etc.) are national D1 powerhouses who would never take a second look at Cullitan, Kelly, Radke, Shamis, or Wallis. The Ivies and Patriots do look at schools such as Glenbrook North on an annual basis, because high-powered academic bastions such as the high schools on the North Shore are more likely to produce students that are Ivy or Patriot material, academically speaking, than other places. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they'll recruit every player that comes out of those schools.

I saw Glenbrook North play several times over the past couple of seasons (all on TV), and it was pretty apparent that Scheyer's teammates were D3 material: Good, not great, high school players who are fundamentally sound and most likely have the grades, the test scores, and the financial wherewithal to attend a private D3 school. In fact, I'm rather surprised that Shamis is going to Lehigh, as I didn't think he was all that and a bag of chips.

Also, I don't know if it's necessarily a case of Wash U being able to "continuously recruit from one school." Bears recruit Zach Kelly (GNHS class of '06) and current Bears PG Sean Wallis (GNHS class of '05) are cousins. It's quite likely that the family relationship made it easier for the Wash U coaching staff to recruit Kelly.

I would say that d3 would fit the majority of  Glenbrook North students.  I graduated from Hinsdale Central where over ninety percent of the students with a Red Devil diploma go on to graduate from a four year colege or university.  Let's say that the top 35% of Glenbrook North students go to Stanford, Bucknell, the Ivy League.  Let's also say that 15% of the kids can't hack it in higher education.  (Correct me if I'm wrong but I think both percentages I have used are generous, meaning I think that less than 15% of the student body couldn't get through college).  That leaves fifty percent of the student body, or more, to draw student athletes, whose parents are loaded.

Exactly. But remember that this is the UAA we're talking about, not just any D3 league. Academically speaking, schools such as Chicago, Case Western, and Wash U are well above the norm for D3. The Ivies and the Patriots are the UAA's peers when it comes to the classroom, not their superiors. I think it's just as likely that someone graduating in the top 35% at Glenbrook North or Hinsdale Central would attend the U of C instead of Stanford, Bucknell, or Princeton.

Your story about your cousin who went to Kentucky is interesting, and also familiar on one level. The valedictorian of my high school class was a good friend of mine, and he went to Harvard on a full ride while I came out to the midwest and attended North Park.

Four years later I ran into him at a party when I was back home. He said to me, "You know, Greg, in retrospect, I suspect that you got a better education than I did."

I was astonished. I said, "Mike, how can you say that? You went to the most prestigious school in America, while I went to a tiny liberal arts college in Chicago that nobody's ever heard of!"

He replied, "Yeah, but every single one of your classes was taught by a tenured professor, right? And your classes were probably all very small, and I'll bet that your profs knew you by name and may have even become your friends, right?"

"Yeah," I said. "That's pretty much exactly what college was like for me."

Mike said, "I never even met a professor until my junior year. All of the core-curriculum classes I took as an underclassman were taught by TAs, and all of my teacher/student interaction was with TAs. A lot of my classes were taught in one auditorium or another, and included hundreds of students. The only interaction I ever had with a prof was with my major advisor, and he barely gave me the time of day. I was a nuisance who cut into his research time, just like all of his other major advisees. And just in terms of general academic atmosphere, it was clear that the focus and energy of Harvard's educational scope was more devoted to graduate students than to undergraduates. We were more of an afterthought.

"Harvard was a great experience in that it exposed me to lots of intelligent peers and an incredible array of resources, and it gave me both the resume boost and the personal connections that will allow me to succeed in life. I'm glad that I went there. But I'm also pretty sure that you got a better education than I did."

I've never forgotten that conversation.

[hugenerd]

I believe that d3 schools are superior to ivy and other d1 schools in many cases (in terms of academics).  I chose a UAA school for undergrad over an ivy (CMU for engineering) and I chose another dIII school for grad school over Princeton, Stanford and Berkeley.  If you go by classroom alone, dIII's more than hold their own against dI schools and, in most cases, they are smaller schools that are more conducive to learning.  DIII was also a great choice for me because I got to coach a year, which I would not have been able to do at the other schools I mentioned.

I think student-athletes would much rather go to a dIII school in most cases because not only do you get a great education but a lot more playing time.  Obviously dIII schools can't compete with Stanford or Duke when it comes to getting athletes, but I think most players would rather go play at a dIII then sit the bench at a dI.

[Wydown Blvd.]

"being Jon Scheyer's teammate doesn't necessarily translate into "national exposure"."
I completely disagree... When Coach K's assistants come to watch a player, I'm sure that the coaches of other institutions also come and watch...therefore national exposure. That's like telling me that Greg Paulus' teammates did not get national exposure. And we are talking about the Illinois State title (thats national exposure in itself). Whether or not they were recruited by Ivy's etc... I know that at least a couple of them were, but that's not my point.

Also, we are talking about the Ivies and the Patriot League...The Patriot League isn't that good.

coocooforcoekohawk...i didnt understand what your story related to...although I understood the reasoning behind the statistics. However, I was talking about the student athletes in particular, not the student body as a whole.

[Gregory Sager]

"being Jon Scheyer's teammate doesn't necessarily translate into "national exposure"."
I completely disagree... When Coach K's assistants come to watch a player, I'm sure that the coaches of other institutions also come and watch...therefore national exposure. That's like telling me that Greg Paulus' teammates did not get national exposure. And we are talking about the Illinois State title (thats national exposure in itself). Whether or not they were recruited by Ivy's etc... I know that at least a couple of them were, but that's not my point.

Irrelevant. Were Cullitan, Kelly, etc., good enough to be recruited by D1 majors? No. Did the "coaches of other institutions" (I presume you're talking about D1 majors aside from the ones that had a serious shot at Scheyer -- Duke, Illinois, and Michigan State) bother to look twice at Cullitan, Kelly, etc.? No.

Those guys aren't good enough to play for a D1 major. The so-called "national exposure" that came with being Scheyer's teammates didn't do them a lick of good, because it wasn't "national exposure" for them. They're now going to schools that play at a level suited to their talents, schools that annually recruit at Glenbrook North even when there isn't a McDonald's All-American on campus to draw everyone's attention from coast to coast.

Also, we are talking about the Ivies and the Patriot League...The Patriot League isn't that good.

Never said it was. Never said that the Ivy League is that good at basketball, either. Both are really only a notch above the best D3 leagues. But, as I said, both recruit at schools such as Glenbrook North as a matter of course, because of the academic aspect. And I still think that Shamis probably won't amount to much in the Patriot League.

[Wydown Blvd.]

Of course the coaches at other institutions are from the same teams I have consistantly talked about...the Ivies and the Patriot League (etc.). Of course I'm not talking about D1 majors (referring to UNC, Illinois, Wake Forest and oher NCAA powerhouses). I am referrring to those teams "really only a notch above the best D3 leagues." The national exposure I'm referring to is giving a midwest player the opportunity to be recognized as a prospect by East Coast schools (Patriot League for example). Being on the same team as Scheyer definately gave them the opportunity to play for major academic institutions on the East Coast. Although as we see they decided to go to "schools that annually recruit at Glenbrook North," playing with an All-American brings great opportunity. Expsure is definately relevant is this discussion.

Because the Ivy and Patriot League aren't that good, this gives the players of Glenbrook North an opportunity to play for DI institutions if they had decided to...