MBB: University Athletic Association

[Gregory Sager]

Of course the coaches at other institutions are from the same teams I have consistantly talked about...the Ivies and the Patriot League (etc.). Of course I'm not talking about D1 majors (referring to UNC, Illinois, Wake Forest and oher NCAA powerhouses). I am referrring to those teams "really only a notch above the best D3 leagues." The national exposure I'm referring to is giving a midwest player the opportunity to be recognized as a prospect by East Coast schools (Patriot League for example). Being on the same team as Scheyer definately gave them the opportunity to play for major academic institutions on the East Coast. Although as we see they decided to go to "schools that annually recruit at Glenbrook North," playing with an All-American brings great opportunity. Expsure is definately relevant is this discussion.

No, it isn't. As I said, Patriot and Ivy teams scout and recruit Glenbrook North and the other CSL schools every year as a matter of course, due to the academic aspect. Scheyer's presence, and the success of Glenbrook North, was irrelevant. The Ivies and the Patriots would've taken a gander at Shamis and his teammates even if Jon Scheyer had decided to become a hockey player as a kid rather than a basketball player.

In other words, this particular version of "national exposure" is something that occurs at Glenbrook North and other CSL schools annually as a matter of course, and had nothing to do with Scheyer.

Because the Ivy and Patriot League aren't that good, this gives the players of Glenbrook North an opportunity to play for DI institutions if they had decided to...

That's exactly my point. Recruiting for Ivy and Patriot teams takes place on an entirely different level, and with a completely different set of criteria, than that of the D1 majors. Because of that, Scheyer and the attention he drew meant absolutely nothing to Shamis, Kelly, Cullitan, Wallis, and Radke in terms of their futures. They were recruited by, or at least looked at by, precisely the types of schools that would've recruited them or looked at them even if Scheyer had not been on the team: Ivies, Patriots, UAAs, etc.

It's stretching it a bit to say that they each could've played for an Ivy League or Patriot League team "if they had decided to," though. Not everybody gets into one of those schools, even if they do get into a UAA school (the reverse is also true). And I'm sure that each of those players didn't get a firm offer from the coaching staff of one of those Ivy or Patriot schools. The Ivies and Patriots are only a notch above the best D3 leagues, as I said, but that doesn't mean that they're interchangeable with D3. They're still a little bit better, and the caliber of players that they bring in (on average, with a certain amount of overlap) is better than what you'd find on most good D3 rosters.

[Wydown Blvd.]

Ok, then the root of this discussion is that I disagree that Ivy's heavily recruit from the midwest..I'm a resident of the East Coast, and Darthmouth and Yale are primarily the only teams with Midwesterners consistantly on their rosters.

I am talking basketball here...pure basketball and not academic recruiting. I don't agree that "Patriot and Ivy teams scout and recruit Glenbrook North...every year as a matter of course, due to the academic aspect." You said and other CSL schools...but the point of the conversation was not CSL schools in general (it was previously established that in general. CSL schools are excellent schools). To say that the success of Glenbrook North was irrelevant is crazy....Google Sean Wallis and basketball, and the high school headlines that appear are because of success.

"The Ivies and the Patriots would've taken a gander at Shamis and his teammates even if Jon Scheyer had decided to become a hockey player as a kid rather than a basketball player."

A gander is different than a hard look.

"In other words, this particular version of "national exposure" is something that occurs at Glenbrook North and other CSL schools annually as a matter of course, and had nothing to do with Scheyer."

This particular exposure that we are talking about is basetball exposure, not academic exposure, and in reference to Glenbrook North (not "other CSL schools").

Next time read the whole quote "an opportunity to play for D1 institutions if they had decided to..."
In other words, they had an opportunity to play for D1institutions in the Patriot/Ivy League etc. Success draw attention no matter what the level of recruiting. Your premise for the schools looking at them is based on academics, I am saying that in addition to academics, success on the court (which can be translated into wins and stats etc.) helps draw a longer look from recruiters.

A better explanation than assuming that Ivy's would look at these kids anyway is a solid explanation why each player went where they went. (which after looking into each player, I found that out myself (and someone else had mentioned that Kelly and Wallis were cousins etc.). I am not convinced that D3 was a natural extension for each of these student-athletes...instead I have found that each school (whether d1 or d3) compliments each of those Glenbrook players.

[Titan Q]

Wydown,

I can only speak based on my experience with Illinois Wesleyan recruits, but it seems to me that the Ivy and Patriot League schools recruit the Midwest pretty hard.  IWU goes head-to-head for recruits every year with Chicago and Wash U, and quite often those kids have Ivy/Patriot schools after them as well.  (Patriot more so than Ivy.)

Going back a few years, Kyle Wente (Effingham St. Anthony H.S. - IL) seriously considered both IWU and Chicago before deciding on Princeton.  D3hoops.com All-American Adam Dauksas (Homewood-Flossmoor H.S. - IL) was recruited hard by Colgate and Chicago.   Marc Daniels (Waubonsie Valley H.S. - IL) selected Colgate over IWU and others.  IWU just landed Hersey H.S. product Sean Dwyer, who had 2 Patriot League schools recruiting him.  Zach Kelly (Glenbrook North H.S.) chose Wash U over IWU and a couple Patriot Leaguer schools.   

In a Hoopsville interview from this past season, I believe former IWU head coach Scott Trost spoke about this topic actually:

http://www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/coachscorner.htm

I think those leagues recruit the Midwest more than you think.  I also agree with Greg that playing with Jon Scheyer didn't bring those Glenbrook North kids any national exposure that actually impacted who recruited them.  Those are kids who the Chicago's, Wash U's, IWU's, Lawrence's, Patriot's, etc would be after regardless simply due to their combination of academic/athletic abilities.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I am talking basketball here...pure basketball and not academic recruiting.

I think that's where you're a little off.  Ivy's have to recruit based on academics, even for athletes, because of the high academic standards.  It's pretty much the same with the UAA schools.  Generally, athletes who have the sort of grades to get into UAA and Ivy League schools are picking a school based on academics.  For neither party is athletics the first priority.  Sure, the kid wants a school that can compete and the school wants a player who will benefit the program, but academics have as much to do with it, if not more, than athletics.

[Gregory Sager]

The Ivies and the Patriots scout the CSL schools every year, Wydown. However much you want to believe that they were there because of Scheyer, or because Glenbrook North went downstate in back-to-back seasons, it just isn't true. Scheyer was not on their radar, anyway, so his presence was not germane to the Lehighs, the Cornells, and the Lafayettes. They were there to see his teammates, not him -- just as they are every year.

You may live on the East Coast, but I live within a 45-minute drive of each of the high schools in the CSL, including Glenbrook North. I know plenty of people from those schools. I know people who teach at those schools. I know students who've played there, parents who send their kids there, and coaches who recruit there. Two friends of mine who played for North Park are teachers and assistant basketball coaches in that league. I took education classes at North Park with a guy who is now a head coach in that league. I know that league, and I know which schools typically recruit there.

As Titan Q has told you, there's nothing at all unusual about coaches from the Ivies and Patriots recruiting in Illinois. And it's no secret that coaches from the Ivies and Patriots are there in the stands every year at CSL games, because: 1) the caliber of basketball is good in that league; 2) the schools are top-notch, some of the best public high schools in the country, in fact, and the students that they produce tend to be of the academic strata sought by such exclusive universities; and 3) the parents of those CSL ballplayers can afford to send their kids to an exclusive school if they don't get a free ride.

Jon Scheyer had nothing to do with this "national exposure" for the Glenbrook North kids. They would've been seen by Ivy League and Patriot League coaches anyway. And there's nothing at all strange about a Glenbrook North player like Matt Shamis going to Lehigh to play basketball. He most likely would've been recruited by them even if his high school team hadn't been wildly successful, because he fits the profile of what the Mountain Hawks are typically looking for in a prospect -- a strong basketball player who isn't quite good enough to get a scholarship to play for one of the top 100 or 150 programs in D1, but who is good enough to play in their league and (most importantly) has the academic background to succeed in the classroom at a demanding institution of higher learning.

[Wydown Blvd.]

Thanks for the input -- and back to the origin of the conversation....therefore it is interesting that three of these players are in the UAA now...and my diction was "interesting" simply because of the ambiguity of the word. All of you guys helped to exemplify my point that these players probably had an opportunity to go D1 prestigious (meaning not a D1 major)...now even if my reasoning for them having this opportunity D1 was wrong (and that is an "if") then it is still "interesting" that 3 out of 6 players (that we were talking about) went UAA.

--and btw, i live in both the Midwest (aka the wydown reference) and the East Coast, so I'm pretty much grounded in the two college regions (of the midwest and northeast).

[David Collinge]

--and btw, i live in both the Midwest (aka the wydown reference) and the East Coast, so I'm pretty much grounded in the two college regions (of the midwest and northeast).

I wondered about that.  When you said you lived on the East Coast, I figured your posting name was just a sign of allegiance to Wash U. that only locals would understand.  I used to live on Delmar just uphill from the Loop, although I was never more than just a neighbor of Wash U.  Whenever I see your posting moniker I am filled with wistful nostalgia. 

[Wydown Blvd.]

lol, yeah definately an insider reference...its good to know someone else caught the moniker. I'm a Wash U fanatic when im in the midwest and an Army fan when in the Northeast, but I have tried to "diversify my portfolio" recently and hit up local d3 conferences (such as the SLIAC and Empire 8 etc) when I get a chance.

[Gregory Sager]

Thanks for the input -- and back to the origin of the conversation....therefore it is interesting that three of these players are in the UAA now...and my diction was "interesting" simply because of the ambiguity of the word. All of you guys helped to exemplify my point that these players probably had an opportunity to go D1 prestigious (meaning not a D1 major)...now even if my reasoning for them having this opportunity D1 was wrong (and that is an "if") then it is still "interesting" that 3 out of 6 players (that we were talking about) went UAA.

We don't know that they all had an opportunity to go to an Ivy League or Patriot League school. We know that one of them did, and opted to accept the offer (Shamis), and we know that another one (Kelly) was recruited by at least one of those prestigious D1 schools. And "recruited" doesn't mean "accepted into," of course, although since Kelly was able to get into Wash U he certainly had more than a fair chance of being accepted into a Patriot or Ivy school as well.

Perhaps more of those Glenbrook North players were recruited by schools from the two D1 prestige conferences. But I haven't seen any links to newspaper websites or recruiting websites that spell that out.

I still don't think it's all that interesting that Wallis, Radke, Cullitan, and Kelly all ended up in the same college league. The UAA is a logical place for a good-but-not-great CSL player to end up. In fact, it may be the most logical place. I can think of two other CSL alumni who played basketball in the UAA last season: Nick Nikitas of New Trier (Wash U) and Jason Vismantas of Highland Park (Chicago). And Chicago's class of '03 superstar Derek Reich, the only four-time UAA Player of the Year in conference history, was also an alumnus of the CSL (Niles West).

--and btw, i live in both the Midwest (aka the wydown reference)

I guess that to understand that reference you have to know something about St. Louis. I don't, other than the fact that I hate its baseball team. 

[Wydown Blvd.]

"ll of you guys helped to exemplify my point that these players probably had an opportunity to go D1 prestigious"

ambiguity is a part of ingenuity...and i know that more of these players did have an opportunity

besides that, none of the players you mentioned were on the same h.s. btw, which was the whole point...

well i still think that its interesting...3 out of 6 (not 4/6) from the same h.s. team to prestigious schools in the same league...but i guess that's why personal opinions are personal and relative.

[Gregory Sager]

ambiguity is a part of ingenuity

and i know that more of these players did have an opportunity

Proof, please. Let's see a link to back that statement up.

I'm not saying that it isn't necessarily true. But I want to see the proof.

besides that, none of the players you mentioned were on the same h.s. btw, which was the whole point...

Given the likelihood of a good CSL player ending up in the UAA, I'd classify the choice of three Glenbrook North teammates to attend UAA schools as something other than "interesting." But, I agree, the word "interesting" is completely subjective.

...3 out of 6 (not 4/6)

Yes, I don't know why I momentarily forgot that Cullitan was going to Lawrence instead of a UAA school.

to prestigious schools in the same league

That doesn't really need to be said about UAA schools. All of the UAA schools are prestigious.

[Wydown Blvd.]

interesting...i think its interesting..u dont...its ambiguous.
There is nothing available to the public that can prove it...sorry.

Nevertheless, the academic correlation argument would be imput here to make up for the lack of information.

because i didn't specify UAA as the league, i said presitigious schools instead...As a Wustl fan, I believe UAA and prestige are comparable.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm not even sure what the argument here is anymore?

Wasn't the original point of contention that Duke's interest in a Glenbrook Borth player would naturally raise the interest level of other D1 schools to other players on the team?

I thought (maybe I'm wrong) that Wydown conceeded that the Ivies were already looking at these guys to begin with.

Is there something else I'm missing?

Did other D1 schools who don't normally recruit primarily on academics offer to these guys?

I'm lost.

[Wydown Blvd.]

No, the original argument was that the 3/6 players went to the UAA and that it was interesting to me. Someone disagreed with me and argued that "national exposure" was irrelevant. But, my point was that the players had an opportunity to go to other places outside of D3 and UAA. Others disagreed with how they would have received that opportunity (and in fact if they received the opportunity at all).

I have not conceeded anything?

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not even sure what the argument here is anymore?

Wasn't the original point of contention that Duke's interest in a Glenbrook Borth player would naturally raise the interest level of other D1 schools to other players on the team?

Actually, as Wydown said, the original point of contention (note italics) was that three guys from the same high school team going to the same league struck him as "interesting," while it didn't really strike me as "interesting" at all. Since we both agree that "interesting" is about as subjective a term as there is, it really isn't a point of contention anymore.

The main point of contention is the one that you raised: Whether or not Jon Scheyer's presence on that Glenbrook North team played any role in his teammates' receiving "national exposure" (i.e., scouting and/or recruiting from the Patriot and Ivy leagues, or from any other D1 schools, for that matter). He continues to say "yes," although I maintain that Titan Q and I have definitely proven that academically prestigious D1 programs on the East Coast not only regularly recruit in Illinois, they also take a keen interest in the CSL because of the combination of basketball talent and academic standards in that particular high school league -- and that, furthermore, the fact that the interest in Scheyer was coming from a completely different level of D1 than the Patriot and Ivy leagues demonstrates that the future Dookie's presence had absolutely nothing to do with the Patriots and the Ivies looking at Shamis and Kelly and (if applicable) the other Glenbrook North players.

I thought (maybe I'm wrong) that Wydown conceeded that the Ivies were already looking at these guys to begin with.

No, as he said he hasn't conceded anything (although in post #502 he at least seemed to entertain the possibility that he might be wrong). As far as I can tell he's still of the mind that Scheyer's prominence and the team's two trips downstate had something to do with Shamis and Kelly (and possibly other Glenbrook North players) drawing attention from the two academically prestigious D1 leagues. Given the facts at hand, and my (and Q's) familiarity with Chicagoland high school basketball as opposed to his, I think Wydown is arguing a case that he's already lost.

Did other D1 schools who don't normally recruit primarily on academics offer to these guys?

No evidence of non-Patriot/Ivy D1 schools making an offer to Scheyer's teammates has been presented -- nor has any evidence of non-Patriot/Ivy D1 schools even considering Scheyer's teammates been presented. And that's an omission that leaves a pretty big hole in Wydown's "national exposure" case, since he hasn't rebutted the assertion made by Q and I that academically prestigious D1 schools recruit players like the Glenbrook North players in question annually as a matter of course. In other words, there's no evidence of an exception, or of anything out of the ordinary, in terms of who recruited Shamis, Kelly & Co. -- and therefore no evidence that Jon Scheyer's presence in their lives had any sort of an impact whatsoever in how they were recruited to play college basketball.