MBB: University Athletic Association

[hugenerd]

I was at the Wash U-NYU game today. Huge descrepancy in fouls called, as noted. Just so you NYU fans won't feel alone, about 2 weeks ago I saw another game played in St. Louis between two teams in another conference. The visiting team was whistled for 33 fouls. All five of their starters fouled out, as did one other player, leaving only 3 fouls called on the five other players who played a combined 61 minutes. In that game the home team was whistled for 21 fouls. Unfortunately, the names of the officials of that game were omitted from the box score, so I can't determine if any of them were the same as those officiating at Wash U today.

To go along with what everyone said, the foul discrepency and free throws attempted really jump out at you when look at the box score.  36-16 fouls and 45 - 12 FTA in favor of WashU.  It is amazing to me that NYU kept it so close with WashU scoring 30 more points from the stripe.  What makes the stats even more curious is that NYU came into the weekend only comitting an average of 16.6 fouls per contest (while WashU was averaging 18.9 a game) which ranked them as the 63rd lowest fouling team in the country.  Additionally, at Chicago on Friday they only committed 15 fouls.  I am by no means a fan of NYU, but you would think that when you hold a team to 34% shooting, shoot 51% from 2 and 52% from 3, outrebound your opponent, and make 11 more FGs including 7 more 3s than your opponent, you could get the win.  Tough loss for the Violets.  I am interested to see what the box score will be like at NYU on Friday in the return trip.  If the number of fouls is in the teens, as you would expect by their average, that 36 foul night will look even worse and reflect badly on WashU and the officials they hire (in my opinion).  You expect a home court advantage, but I have never seen that type of disparity before, especially when 4 starters foul out on one team and none on the other.

[deiscanton]

There were huge foul discrepancies in both Wash U men's home games this weekend.

If you take a look at the box score from Friday's Wash U/Brandeis men's game, the foul discrepancy was still significant.  Brandeis was called for 27 fouls to Wash U's 15.-- thereby leading to Wash U outscoring Brandeis 31-8 at the charity stripe.   Brandeis outscored Wash U at the field, 56-37, when the charity stripe is taken out of the equation.

When a UAA team plays on the road, I don't expect the visiting team to get the benefit of the doubt of the foul call in close-call situations.  However, I do expect that the refs should at least call the game fairly and not have too much suspicion of "homer" bias.

The rematches next week at NYU and Brandeis will tell a lot in whether the foul calling is a result of Wash U's playing style vs. the other two teams.

[hugenerd]

There were huge foul discrepancies in both Wash U men's home games this weekend.

If you take a look at the box score from Friday's Wash U/Brandeis men's game, the foul discrepancy was still significant.  Brandeis was called for 27 fouls to Wash U's 15.-- thereby leading to Wash U outscoring Brandeis 31-8 at the charity stripe.   Brandeis outscored Wash U at the field, 56-37, when the charity stripe is taken out of the equation.

When a UAA team plays on the road, I don't expect the visiting team to get the benefit of the doubt of the foul call in close-call situations.  However, I do expect that the refs should at least call the game fairly and not have too much suspicion of "homer" bias.

The rematches next week at NYU and Brandeis will tell a lot in whether the foul calling is a result of Wash U's playing style vs. the other two teams.

With the talk about foul discrepencies, I decided to check for myself who has the largest home court advantage, in terms of fouls called on the home team versus the visiting team.  The values listed are for conference games only and in the following format: # of fouls per game at home- # of fouls per game of visiting opponents= difference (games). + means the difference is in the home teams favor, - means in the visitor teams favor.

WashU: 16.3-26 = +9.7 (4)
Rochester: 16.3-21 = +4.7 (4)
CMU: 18-22.2= +4.2 (5)
Chicago: 14.4-18.2 = +3.8 (5)
Emory: 23.5-21.5 = -2.0 (2)
Case: 18.7-16= -2.7 (3)
Brandeis: 18.7-15.7 = -3.0 (3)
NYU: 17.5-14 = -3.5 (2)

So WashU by far has the largest home court foul advantage (through the conference season so far).  WashU is also the only team to have more fouls called in their favor in every conference game this season at home (every other team has had at least one game where the foul discrepency was equal to zero or in their opponents favor).  WashU has averaged shooting 21 more foul shots than their opponents in those 4 games, scoring 19.5 more points than their opponents from the line per game.

It is also interesting to note that the foul calling discrepency in favor of WashU was +16 per game this weekend (15.5 - 31.5) and they shot 30 more FTs per game than their opponents (+33 v NYU, +27 v Brandeis).

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Could it also just be that WashU seems to be a step ahead of everyone else this year that might require more fouls than other teams?

What are the numbers for conference games on the road?  Is there the same basic pattern?

[dblock]

Could it also just be that WashU seems to be a step ahead of everyone else this year that might require more fouls than other teams?

What are the numbers for conference games on the road?  Is there the same basic pattern?

Wash U has played 10 non conference games this year.
Fouls called go as follows:
Game 1- Wash U. 15pf Opp. 17
Game 2- Wash U. 22pf Opp. 21
Game 3- Wash U. 15pf Opp. 12
Game 4- Wash U. 23pf Opp. 22
Game 5-  Wash U. 25pf Opp. 21
Game 6-  Wash U. 19pf Opp. 18
Game 7-  Wash U. 17pf Opp. 19
Game 8-  Wash U. 21pf Opp. 17
Game 9-  Wash U. 25pf Opp. 20
Game 10-  Wash U. 17pf Opp. 20

Wash U +12 on the year

I was at the game and it was a travesty. NYU got robbed of a hard fought victory. When two players on one team shoot more than another team completely, theres something wrong. And homecourt advantage in the UAA is always there, but it is never so blatant or obvious. It was wrong and theres a reason why the refs sprinted off the court and were out of the gym before the teams even got up to shake hands.

[deiscanton]

I just wanted to write further, and say that I only heard an audiocast of the Brandeis at Wash U men's game on the web on Friday, so I would have to watch DVDs of both Wash U games from the weekend to be in a position to make any conclusive decisions.  (That is, if I can afford to order them from Nextplay.)

However, I am now hearing from the last post that a few personal observers of Sunday's NYU at Wash U game are raising questions about the officiating, and it is very distressing for me to hear this-- because if it becomes clear on video review that the refereeing calls were very biased in favor of the home team, that is cause for a conference review of the officiating.  Keep in mind that I have not heard any personal reports from observers present at the Brandeis/Wash U men's game about the officiating from that game yet.

It could very easily be the playing style of the Wash U men's basketball team over the past few weeks that is leading to this discrepancy in the foul calling, but the games would have to be rewatched again to make certain.

I'm just looking forward to Friday and Sunday, when Brandeis has their home rematches against Chicago and Wash U.  If Wash U sweeps NYU and Brandeis on the road this upcoming weekend, there won't be any question that Wash U is the better team.

[dblock]

I just wanted to write further, and say that I only heard an audiocast of the Brandeis at Wash U men's game on the web on Friday, so I would have to watch DVDs of both Wash U games from the weekend to be in a position to make any conclusive decisions.  (That is, if I can afford to order them from Nextplay.)

However, I am now hearing from the last post that a few personal observers of Sunday's NYU at Wash U game are raising questions about the officiating, and it is very distressing for me to hear this-- because if it becomes clear on video review that the refereeing calls were very biased in favor of the home team, that is cause for a conference review of the officiating.  Keep in mind that I have not heard any personal reports from observers present at the Brandeis/Wash U men's game about the officiating from that game yet.

It could very easily be the playing style of the Wash U men's basketball team over the past few weeks that is leading to this discrepancy in the foul calling, but the games would have to be rewatched again to make certain.

I'm just looking forward to Friday and Sunday, when Brandeis has their home rematches against Chicago and Wash U.  If Wash U sweeps NYU and Brandeis on the road this upcoming weekend, there won't be any question that Wash U is the better team.

The Brandeis game is a little different than the NYU game. Wash U took many of their ft's towards the end of the game during a comeback attempt by Brandeis. IF you can find the gametape of the NYU/Waash U game, watch it and see if the officials werent biased.

[stlbballer]

As far as the refs go - wash u has the same 8 or 9 midwest refs they've had the past 8 years.  Never before has they ever given wash u such a huge advantage purposefully during the last 8 years...so i find it strange that the same refs all of a sudden decide to do so.  Also, Wash U's best 3 players and leading scorers all had 4 fouls...but were simply smart enough not to foul themselves out of the game.  Also, the midwest calls a tighter game than the east coast...so maybe the east coast schools are used to playing more physical because they are used to getting away with it out east.  I'm not saying the refs did a great job by any means...I usually find that refs in general do a pretty poor job - but they were not purposefully biased in any way.  They miss calls and made bad calls both ways.

[dblock]

As far as the refs go - wash u has the same 8 or 9 midwest refs they've had the past 8 years.  Never before has they ever given wash u such a huge advantage purposefully during the last 8 years...so i find it strange that the same refs all of a sudden decide to do so.  Also, Wash U's best 3 players and leading scorers all had 4 fouls...but were simply smart enough not to foul themselves out of the game.  Also, the midwest calls a tighter game than the east coast...so maybe the east coast schools are used to playing more physical because they are used to getting away with it out east.  I'm not saying the refs did a great job by any means...I usually find that refs in general do a pretty poor job - but they were not purposefully biased in any way.  They miss calls and made bad calls both ways.

Their 3 best players all had 4 fouls and all of their 4th fouls came in the OT. If the fouls were called the same way on both ends of the court Ruths and Wallis would have been out mid 2nd Half. Ruths and Wallis were killing Boone all game in the paint. Anyone who saw this game could not deny that the calls were unfair.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Also, the midwest calls a tighter game than the east coast...so maybe the east coast schools are used to playing more physical because they are used to getting away with it out east.

This is a much bigger deal than a lot of people will give credit for.  I was blown away at how tight the refs called the game when I went to the Grinnell-Lawrence game last season out in Iowa.  They say that's pretty standard fare for the area and it's very, very different from what you get in New England.

I also won't discount the fact that WashU seems to have the stronger squad, and often times a stronger squad just won't commit as many fouls in a game.  I've seen in break that way plenty of times before.

[stlbballer]

Another thing is that Wash U has very little depth this year...they got in foul trouble in some of the earlier games this year and really struggled with their best players on the bench.  So I'm sure the coaching staff is really emphasizing to the starters not to foul, b/c they cannot afford to.

[hugenerd]

Could it also just be that WashU seems to be a step ahead of everyone else this year that might require more fouls than other teams?

What are the numbers for conference games on the road?  Is there the same basic pattern?

In their road games, in conference, WashU is averaging exactly the same number of fouls received and committed (17 a game). 

As for the midwest argument: Against Chicago they committed 18 fouls and were fouled 10 times.  Against Case they committed 12 fouls and were fouled 16 times.  Those numbers look a lot lower than 36.  Against Chicago, they were only fouled 10 times.  So, in their road midwest games, they have actually committed more fouls against opponents then they have been fouled themselves (15 vs 13 per game).

You can be as loyal a WashU fan as you want or think that refs never decide the game, but when you look at the numbers for that game in particular and also consider the fact that NYU was leading for most of the game (meaning there would be no reason for them to foul intentionally at the end of the game), you just have to admit there was a huge homecourt bias.

Wash U scored 48% of their points from the free throw line in that game.  I am not sure what that value is for an average game, but 48% seems really high.  Not only did they score nearly half their points from the line, but they scored 30 more points than NYU at the line in that game (that works out be nearly 5 times as many free throws made for WashU than NYU, and nearly 4 times as many attempted).

In conclusion, I am by no means an NYU fan.  The only thing I like about NYU is that when we played there they would give us really good pizza after the games.  However, whatever arguments you are going to make, they still dont add up to 20 more fouls.

38 fouls in a 45 minute game is nearly a foul per minute.  If you consider the average possession is 25 seconds (and consider that possessions alternate, so in a 75 second span each team would have 1.5 possessions), that means that NYU had to foul WashU once every 1.5 possesions.  If you are still going to argue, that means that 2 out of every 3 times WashU came down the court, NYU fouled.  That is ridiculous and ludicrous.  Even if you make a safe estimate, it still comes out to at least one foul every other possession, which is still absurd.

As for the, why would the refs choose this game out of all the games to be really biased when they havent done it before, argument.  Well, who says they havent done it in the past.  Since it is pretty well known that NYU is a very strong team, and also that WashU is doing well this year and this game means alot, they would have alot of motivation to help "their" team win.

These are just my opinions.  I didnt go to the game, but I did talk to a few people and look at the box score thoroughly.  And I still think NYU got hosed.

[hugenerd]

Another thing is that Wash U has very little depth this year...they got in foul trouble in some of the earlier games this year and really struggled with their best players on the bench.  So I'm sure the coaching staff is really emphasizing to the starters not to foul, b/c they cannot afford to.

As a recent WashU alum, I wouldn't expect you to have an unbiased opinion, Mr. Stone.  Nice game versus Fontbonne last year.

[violet15]

Could it also just be that WashU seems to be a step ahead of everyone else this year that might require more fouls than other teams?

What are the numbers for conference games on the road?  Is there the same basic pattern?

In their road games, in conference, WashU is averaging exactly the same number of fouls received and committed (17 a game). 

As for the midwest argument: Against Chicago they committed 18 fouls and were fouled 10 times.  Against Case they committed 12 fouls and were fouled 16 times.  Those numbers look a lot lower than 36.  Against Chicago, they were only fouled 10 times.  So, in their road midwest games, they have actually committed more fouls against opponents then they have been fouled themselves (15 vs 13 per game).

You can be as loyal a WashU fan as you want or think that refs never decide the game, but when you look at the numbers for that game in particular and also consider the fact that NYU was leading for most of the game (meaning there would be no reason for them to foul intentionally at the end of the game), you just have to admit there was a huge homecourt bias.

Wash U scored 48% of their points from the free throw line in that game.  I am not sure what that value is for an average game, but 48% seems really high.  Not only did they score nearly half their points from the line, but they scored 30 more points than NYU at the line in that game (that works out be nearly 5 times as many free throws made for WashU than NYU, and nearly 4 times as many attempted).

In conclusion, I am by no means an NYU fan.  The only thing I like about NYU is that when we played there they would give us really good pizza after the games.  However, whatever arguments you are going to make, they still dont add up to 20 more fouls.

38 fouls in a 45 minute game is nearly a foul per minute.  If you consider the average possession is 25 seconds (and consider that possessions alternate, so in a 75 second span each team would have 1.5 possessions), that means that NYU had to foul WashU once every 1.5 possesions.  If you are still going to argue, that means that 2 out of every 3 times WashU came down the court, NYU fouled.  That is ridiculous and ludicrous.  Even if you make a safe estimate, it still comes out to at least one foul every other possession, which is still absurd.

As for the, why would the refs choose this game out of all the games to be really biased when they havent done it before, argument.  Well, who says they havent done it in the past.  Since it is pretty well known that NYU is a very strong team, and also that WashU is doing well this year and this game means alot, they would have alot of motivation to help "their" team win.

These are just my opinions.  I didnt go to the game, but I did talk to a few people and look at the box score thoroughly.  And I still think NYU got hosed.

hugenerd serious accolades for bringing some credibility to the feelings of all nyu fans by your unbiased agreement with the conclusion we(and i am confident i speak for all of the nyu faithful) have come to. at least the issue has been brought to light in some public manner

[stlbballer]

Ok, my point was not that NYU didn't get screwed by officials.  It is entirely possible and they probably did.  I saw Friday's game, but didn't see the NYU game.  My point was that I do not believe it was an intentional effort by the refs, probably just a series of poor calls.  I'm just arguing the people who have looked at the last few home games and say the officials are making a point to help them win. 

As far as your stats about their midwest road games...that kind of support my statement of the east coast calling it looser and playing more physical.  When two midwest teams play they are used to the tighter calls and don't foul as much.  Obviously, just a theory.  I'm not saying the officiating wasn't terrible Sunday, I didn't see it.  But that's not something you can judge solely by a box score, you'd have to be at a game.