MBB: University Athletic Association

[violet15]

Ok, my point was not that NYU didn't get screwed by officials.  It is entirely possible and they probably did.  I saw Friday's game, but didn't see the NYU game.  My point was that I do not believe it was an intentional effort by the refs, probably just a series of poor calls.  I'm just arguing the people who have looked at the last few home games and say the officials are making a point to help them win. 

As far as your stats about their midwest road games...that kind of support my statement of the east coast calling it looser and playing more physical.  When two midwest teams play they are used to the tighter calls and don't foul as much.  Obviously, just a theory.  I'm not saying the officiating wasn't terrible Sunday, I didn't see it.  But that's not something you can judge solely by a box score, you'd have to be at a game. 

bro
a "series of bad calls" does not a create a 20 foul and 33 free throw differential. its nothing personal against wash players fans or even coaches. i and im sure my nyu compadres wouldnt doubt the school's integrity. but foul statistics that are so one sided. it is very understandable to question the integrity of the officials.
it is also intersting to note that aside from the fianl score, the only stats where wash had an advantage were in fouls ft attempted and ft made. once again, simply very peculiar.
as for the midwest argument. nyu had 15 fouls vs chicago (or somehere thereabouts, im not sure of the exact number, apologies)  which last i checjed was midwestern. so i feel like that argument isnt so sound. once again i would like to reiterate that the problem simply isnt essentially with wash or its players or fans. at the core the real problem was with the officiating. plain and simple

[Gregory Sager]

Also, the midwest calls a tighter game than the east coast...so maybe the east coast schools are used to playing more physical because they are used to getting away with it out east.

This is a much bigger deal than a lot of people will give credit for.  I was blown away at how tight the refs called the game when I went to the Grinnell-Lawrence game last season out in Iowa.  They say that's pretty standard fare for the area and it's very, very different from what you get in New England.

Most people who have seen multiple D3 teams from different parts of the country say the exact opposite, that the style of ball here in the heartland tends to be more physical. Some of the South Region folks have talked quite a bit about how hard it has been for their teams to adjust to the added bumping, pushing, and shoving that goes on in the paint in D3 tournament games against midwestern teams.

As for Grinnell vs. Lawrence, c'mon, HF ... you aren't really using a Grinnell game as evidence of a larger regional trend, are you?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The paint is different.  There were typically rough battles in the paint, but fouls were called much more liberally, especially on drives to the basket and around the perimeter.

I know Grinnell isn't normal, but trends say that GC gets less fouls called on them than normal and that was totally not the case in my estimation.

Granted, I'm used to seeing low priority leagues in the NE rather than NESCAC or NEWMAC games, but guards, especially can get away with a lot more in the East.

I think there are also just more good post players in the midwest, which leads to tougher battles down low.

I'm going to stand by what I've seen and heard.  The games are called tighter in the Midwest.  Even in the crappy NAIA games I get to see most often.

[ball_er]

So who are you holding responsible for the fouls in the WU/NYU game?  The WU players?  The coach? Could it possibly be the players for the NYU Violets?  I was at that game and though there were certainly a lot of fouls called on NYU, they were committing a lot of fouls a number of which, including elbows thrown to the opposing team's face, that the officials did not call.  I will admit that statistically it appears one-sided and as an NYU fan it would be upsetting.  But, it should be considered that the fouls were called because the fouls were committed.  Furthermore, speaking of statistics, of the percentages listed throughout this page, I would be curious as to how many of those fouls were committed in OT.  NYU was fouling deliberately to gain possession at that po

Ok, my point was not that NYU didn't get screwed by officials.  It is entirely possible and they probably did.  I saw Friday's game, but didn't see the NYU game.  My point was that I do not believe it was an intentional effort by the refs, probably just a series of poor calls.  I'm just arguing the people who have looked at the last few home games and say the officials are making a point to help them win. 

As far as your stats about their midwest road games...that kind of support my statement of the east coast calling it looser and playing more physical.  When two midwest teams play they are used to the tighter calls and don't foul as much.  Obviously, just a theory.  I'm not saying the officiating wasn't terrible Sunday, I didn't see it.  But that's not something you can judge solely by a box score, you'd have to be at a game. 

bro
a "series of bad calls" does not a create a 20 foul and 33 free throw differential. its nothing personal against wash players fans or even coaches. i and im sure my nyu compadres wouldnt doubt the school's integrity. but foul statistics that are so one sided. it is very understandable to question the integrity of the officials.
it is also intersting to note that aside from the fianl score, the only stats where wash had an advantage were in fouls ft attempted and ft made. once again, simply very peculiar.
as for the midwest argument. nyu had 15 fouls vs chicago (or somehere thereabouts, im not sure of the exact number, apologies)  which last i checjed was midwestern. so i feel like that argument isnt so sound. once again i would like to reiterate that the problem simply isnt essentially with wash or its players or fans. at the core the real problem was with the officiating. plain and simple

int in the game.

[hugenerd]

So who are you holding responsible for the fouls in the WU/NYU game?  The WU players?  The coach? Could it possibly be the players for the NYU Violets?  I was at that game and though there were certainly a lot of fouls called on NYU, they were committing a lot of fouls a number of which, including elbows thrown to the opposing team's face, that the officials did not call.  I will admit that statistically it appears one-sided and as an NYU fan it would be upsetting.  But, it should be considered that the fouls were called because the fouls were committed.  Furthermore, speaking of statistics, of the percentages listed throughout this page, I would be curious as to how many of those fouls were committed in OT.  NYU was fouling deliberately to gain possession at that po

Ok, my point was not that NYU didn't get screwed by officials.  It is entirely possible and they probably did.  I saw Friday's game, but didn't see the NYU game.  My point was that I do not believe it was an intentional effort by the refs, probably just a series of poor calls.  I'm just arguing the people who have looked at the last few home games and say the officials are making a point to help them win. 

As far as your stats about their midwest road games...that kind of support my statement of the east coast calling it looser and playing more physical.  When two midwest teams play they are used to the tighter calls and don't foul as much.  Obviously, just a theory.  I'm not saying the officiating wasn't terrible Sunday, I didn't see it.  But that's not something you can judge solely by a box score, you'd have to be at a game. 

bro
a "series of bad calls" does not a create a 20 foul and 33 free throw differential. its nothing personal against wash players fans or even coaches. i and im sure my nyu compadres wouldnt doubt the school's integrity. but foul statistics that are so one sided. it is very understandable to question the integrity of the officials.
it is also intersting to note that aside from the fianl score, the only stats where wash had an advantage were in fouls ft attempted and ft made. once again, simply very peculiar.
as for the midwest argument. nyu had 15 fouls vs chicago (or somehere thereabouts, im not sure of the exact number, apologies)  which last i checjed was midwestern. so i feel like that argument isnt so sound. once again i would like to reiterate that the problem simply isnt essentially with wash or its players or fans. at the core the real problem was with the officiating. plain and simple

int in the game.

NYU committed 7 fouls in OT and WashU committed 3 (in regulation the fouls were 29-13).  However, 4 of the 7 fouls NYU was called on in OT were with over 2.5 minutes left, and therefore dont seem to be intentional.  There were only 3 fouls that appear to have been committed intentionally from the game report (which you can look at the NYU website below the box score).  It is also interesting that WashU scored its first 8 points of OT from the foul line (why would they intentionally foul from the beginning of OT?)and 12 of the 14 points WashU scored in OT, overall, were from the foul line.  Only 4 of those points from the line came with under 2 minutes left (when they would be getting fouled intentionally).  NYU scored only 4 points total from the line in OT (and 8 points total in the game).  WashU shot a total of 14 foul shots in OT and NYU shot 6.

[violet15]

So who are you holding responsible for the fouls in the WU/NYU game?  The WU players?  The coach? Could it possibly be the players for the NYU Violets?  I was at that game and though there were certainly a lot of fouls called on NYU, they were committing a lot of fouls a number of which, including elbows thrown to the opposing team's face, that the officials did not call.  I will admit that statistically it appears one-sided and as an NYU fan it would be upsetting.  But, it should be considered that the fouls were called because the fouls were committed.  Furthermore, speaking of statistics, of the percentages listed throughout this page, I would be curious as to how many of those fouls were committed in OT.  NYU was fouling deliberately to gain possession at that po

Ok, my point was not that NYU didn't get screwed by officials.  It is entirely possible and they probably did.  I saw Friday's game, but didn't see the NYU game.  My point was that I do not believe it was an intentional effort by the refs, probably just a series of poor calls.  I'm just arguing the people who have looked at the last few home games and say the officials are making a point to help them win. 

As far as your stats about their midwest road games...that kind of support my statement of the east coast calling it looser and playing more physical.  When two midwest teams play they are used to the tighter calls and don't foul as much.  Obviously, just a theory.  I'm not saying the officiating wasn't terrible Sunday, I didn't see it.  But that's not something you can judge solely by a box score, you'd have to be at a game. 

bro
a "series of bad calls" does not a create a 20 foul and 33 free throw differential. its nothing personal against wash players fans or even coaches. i and im sure my nyu compadres wouldnt doubt the school's integrity. but foul statistics that are so one sided. it is very understandable to question the integrity of the officials.
it is also intersting to note that aside from the fianl score, the only stats where wash had an advantage were in fouls ft attempted and ft made. once again, simply very peculiar.
as for the midwest argument. nyu had 15 fouls vs chicago (or somehere thereabouts, im not sure of the exact number, apologies)  which last i checjed was midwestern. so i feel like that argument isnt so sound. once again i would like to reiterate that the problem simply isnt essentially with wash or its players or fans. at the core the real problem was with the officiating. plain and simple

int in the game.

who blamed the wash players or coaches? i specifically said they had nothing to do with it. the responsibility for this sham of a game rests squarely on the officials. washu was simply a beneficiary of this. while of course nyu fans like myself are outraged , there are objective voices who have agreed. its not as if the outcome of the game will be changed, you have your win, but admit that this was not exactly fair. i would also like to add that the popular washu argument that nyu was swimply not talented to keep up with wash, and was thus forced to foul, is simply incorrect. nyu had the game won before the offciicals dedided to take the game in their own hands. and the argument that official let some nyu fouls go uncalled is ludicrous. that woul insinuate thatnyu committed MORE than 36 fouls, that from a team that clearly does not have a foul problem (16.6 per game) and is not aided by home officials, as they average more fouls than their opponents at home games. trying to say nyu threw elbows, attacking nyu players integrity, is nothing more than an attempt to get away from the discussion of the games integrity.

[mark_reichert]

What I find amazing is that people who weren't at the game can pass judgment on officials who were actually watching the players and extremely biased people complaining about the bias of others.

But such is life in the United States 2007, since everything these days is based on projecting your own worst attributes on others and substituting opinion for fact.

"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

BTW, I was at the game for the last 7 1/2 minutes of regulation, and while it appeared to my untrained eyes that NYU was doing a lot more stuff worthy of having a fouled called, I wouldn't swear to it.

[violet15]

What I find amazing is that people who weren't at the game can pass judgment on officials who were actually watching the players and extremely biased people complaining about the bias of others.

But such is life in the United States 2007, since everything these days is based on projecting your own worst attributes on others and substituting opinion for fact.

"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"

BTW, I was at the game for the last 7 1/2 minutes of regulation, and while it appeared to my untrained eyes that NYU was doing a lot more stuff worthy of having a fouled called, I wouldn't swear to it.

i dont think anyone should use NYU-Wash as evidence for a commentary on modern american society. there are a few points that i do think need to be made. there have been in fact people in attendance at the game who on this board who have come to the same conclusion that people like me who simply saw the stats came to.

also, it is tuesday and i feel like the 3 days of discussion this game has received has spoken volumes in and of itself. there is more to worry about looking forward, including friday's rematch. which will silence one end of this debate [which could very well(but hopefully not) be my side]

[Gregory Sager]

The paint is different.  There were typically rough battles in the paint, but fouls were called much more liberally, especially on drives to the basket and around the perimeter.

I know Grinnell isn't normal, but trends say that GC gets less fouls called on them than normal and that was totally not the case in my estimation.

Granted, I'm used to seeing low priority leagues in the NE rather than NESCAC or NEWMAC games, but guards, especially can get away with a lot more in the East.

I think there are also just more good post players in the midwest, which leads to tougher battles down low.

I'm going to stand by what I've seen and heard.  The games are called tighter in the Midwest.  Even in the crappy NAIA games I get to see most often.

That hasn't been my observation with regards to guards, either, although I concede that it has been quite awhile since I saw a game out east. But the physicality of midwestern big men is certainly a pretty glaring difference in D3 tourney play, according to everything I've seen and heard, and because they're used to that style the refs are much more likely to let stuff go inside here in Flyover U.S.A. that might get called in a gym somewhere else in the country.

and the argument that official let some nyu fouls go uncalled is ludicrous.

You know you're in the UAA room when a poster spells "ludicrous" correctly, rather than the way that the rapper spells it.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Again, I haven't had much opportunity to see games in the "big" conferences, but usually the eastern refs let everything go, except for things that are obviously not fouls, which are whistled with reckless abandon.

[Marty Peretz]

People don't seem to understand that the reason WashU doesn't foul all that much is because they can't afford to. Wallis played 40 minutes, Ruths played something like 38. They have to be especially careful because Edwards hasn't been going to his bench nearly as much as other coaches. NYU went 10, 11 deep and could afford to play a more aggressive style. That said, there were some ludicrous away from the ball fouls on NYU. But besides those 2 or 3 off the ball fouls, most of the calls were legit.

Nading has the quickest first step in the league and thus gets to the rim constantly, forcing teams to foul. Ruths is the most dominant big man in the league and when he gets the ball underneath the basket, it's all but impossible not to foul him. Lastly, because of the team's fast breaking style, Wallis gets a lot of 2 on 1, 3 on 2 type sets and takes it to the lane, thereby forcing opponents to hack him. I'll acknowledge that NYU got burned on a couple bone head away from the ball stuff and DeCorso's fifth, if I remember correctly, was pretty ticky tacky. Other then that though, everything I just said is evidence enough that the tempo of WashU's play coupled with the style of its individual offensive weapons forces opponents to foul more than they'd like.

Lastly, everyone loves to pick on the best team and that's what this is really about. The Bears were expected to have a down year, as people underestimated the strength of their young talent. Finally, observers suspected, NYU or Brandeis was supposed to break through and thus far, they haven't. I understand the frustration, but please don't tack it up to some sort or grand conspiracy on the part of Midwest refs. Besides the NYU game and to slight extent the Brandeis game, WashU has had relatively little trouble dismantling its UAA opponents. Until, they perform otherwise, stick to basketball, not conspiracies.

[hugenerd]

People don't seem to understand that the reason WashU doesn't foul all that much is because they can't afford to.

So NYU can afford to lose 4 of their starters?

The Bears were expected to have a down year, as people underestimated the strength of their young talent.

They were picked in the preseason poll to finish 3rd, not exactly a down year, and had 1 vote to finish in first place.  Additionally, there were only a few points separating 1st through 4th in the conference in the preseason poll.  Additionally, WashU finished second in the UAA last year to a CMU team who lost its top 7 scorers.  I dont think anybody was putting them in the bottom half of the conference.

I understand the frustration, but please don't tack it up to some sort or grand conspiracy on the part of Midwest refs.

Unless I am mistaken, you are the first person to mention any type of conspiracy.  Everyone else was arguing that this game in particular (some also mentioned the Brandeis game) was called much in the favor of the home team. 

Until, they perform otherwise, stick to basketball, not conspiracies.

NYU performed pretty well according to the box score against WashU, they actually had better statistics in almost every category--- except free throw attempts.

[mark_reichert]

i dont think anyone should use NYU-Wash as evidence for a commentary on modern american society.

I was talking about the discussion, not the game.

also, it is tuesday and i feel like the 3 days of discussion this game has received has spoken volumes in and of itself.

It speaks volumes about the people posting here, not the game.

[mark_reichert]

Unless I am mistaken, you are the first person to mention any type of conspiracy.  Everyone else was arguing that this game in particular (some also mentioned the Brandeis game) was called much in the favor of the home team. 

Well, given that two different sets of refs handled the two games....

NYU performed pretty well according to the box score against WashU, they actually had better statistics in almost every category--- except free throw attempts.

Define almost.  Here's the box score:

http://bearsports.wustl.edu/mensbball/GAME17.HTM

Turnovers and Steals favor WashU and Rebounds and blocked shots are about even.

[violet15]

[

also, it is tuesday and i feel like the 3 days of discussion this game has received has spoken volumes in and of itself.

It speaks volumes about the people posting here, not the game.

im sorry i missd the part where you are any different than the rest of us, as you simply present your case the way we present ours.

NYU performed pretty well according to the box score against WashU, they actually had better statistics in almost every category--- except free throw attempts.

Define almost.  Here's the box score:

http://bearsports.wustl.edu/mensbball/GAME17.HTM

Turnovers and Steals favor WashU and Rebounds and blocked shots are about even.

to which ill say that "about even" isnt even, one team had more, and that team was nyu. and fine you have steals and turnovers. turnovers mean nothing, points off turnovers are what count so get me that number if you want to make an argument. and if you're gonna argue on behalf of Wash the numbers simply are not your friend. no one is saying wash is a bad team, hell ill even say they probably are better than nyu. but they werent this sunday. nyu was simply outplaying wash the whole game and the numbers on the floor show that. nyu shot over 50 percent for the game, 52 from 3, while holding wash under 35 in both those categories. those numbers become even more staggering when you see that not only does the percentage come out in nyus favor, but the total field goals made: 29-18. Wash only made 18 shots (only 5 3s) in the entire game yet they finish with 79 points. this isnt even a close game if the game is called evenly. but it wasnt 45-12 ft attempts 36-16 fouls. this doesnt happen. of course nyu may have fouled more than wash did, but 36-16 doesnt happen. nyu isnt a high school jv team. they have played high level competion. they werent whistled for 36 fouls against chicago, or rochester, or even brandeis. it wasnt as if ruths was frustrating them inside, either (4-12). nyu outplayed wash on he court this sunday, the game was decided at the free throw line. if the spread was a few fouls, or even 5, even 10 fouls difference, there would be no discussion. nut it simply makes no sense that a team who is outplaying their oppenent would foul 20 timesmore.

in my personal opinion as ive said before, nothing is going to change, wash fans you have your win, and no one has a problem with your team. the refs decided to call it one sided, you didnt, your players didnt, your coach didnt. my problem (and i would like to say it goes for most nyu fans) is not with you or your team. i just think if that game goes down in the archives as a win for wash, as it of course will, it should go down somewhere that it wasnt exactly agreed upon by all.