MBB: University Athletic Association

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Just an observation because I've never been to a WASHU game to know for sure, but as someone who moved to the midwest from the Northeast, the refs in general tend to be quite different.

In the few midwest games I've been able to see the refs call the games really closely compared to their brethren in the East.  It's not usually a big deal because teams, on the whole, don't travel a lot.  However, in the UAA it becomes more of an issue as games are played across regions.

There may be no conspiracy, even if there is a difference in the way games are called.

[hugenerd]

I have played at WashU 4 times and I am pretty sure they grow the refs up behind that glass case that overlooks the court.

Just an observation because I've never been to a WASHU game to know for sure, but as someone who moved to the midwest from the Northeast, the refs in general tend to be quite different.

In the few midwest games I've been able to see the refs call the games really closely compared to their brethren in the East.  It's not usually a big deal because teams, on the whole, don't travel a lot.  However, in the UAA it becomes more of an issue as games are played across regions.

There may be no conspiracy, even if there is a difference in the way games are called.

Also, to refute this argument, in the game that NYU played at WashU last season, NYU only shot 12 free throws, while WashU shot 45 and WashU was +30 points at the FT line.  If Midwest refs call it close, you wouldnt expect it to be that much in favor of one team.   Also, NYU averaged less than 18 fouls per game for the whole season, but was called for 36 that game.  NYU also averaged less fouls per game than their opponents, yet was called for 20 more in that particular game. You would also eventually expect a team to adjust to the refs,  no team is dumb enough to continually foul until their 4 best players foul out of the game (WashU had 0 players foul out).

I am by no means an NYU fan, but I remember scratching my head about that game for while after it happened.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I would expect it to be a wide disparity because the WashU players are used to the refs calling it close and play accordingly.  The teams from the East are used to a rougher game and play according to that assumption.

If the fouls were even, it would be an argument against this theory, but for it to work they would have to have a disparity.

The best way to test it would be to take two physical teams from the East and have them play a game in Iowa with local refs.  Then we would see how many fouls get called.

I'm not saying this is right, but it was the most obvious difference to me in moving out here.

[Gregory Sager]

I think HF has it backwards. I think that the midwestern D3 game is much more physical than it is in the northeast, and that that's a substantial reason why the midwestern teams have historically fared better in tournament play. As a former upstate New Yorker, I know that the D3 teams that I've seen from my old stomping grounds haven't been nearly as engaged in the constant sumo-wrestling in the low post and the subtle, wink-of-an-eye hand-checking that goes on out here in Flyover, USA.

I have played at WashU 4 times and I am pretty sure they grow the refs up behind that glass case that overlooks the court.

Just an observation because I've never been to a WASHU game to know for sure, but as someone who moved to the midwest from the Northeast, the refs in general tend to be quite different.

In the few midwest games I've been able to see the refs call the games really closely compared to their brethren in the East.  It's not usually a big deal because teams, on the whole, don't travel a lot.  However, in the UAA it becomes more of an issue as games are played across regions.

There may be no conspiracy, even if there is a difference in the way games are called.

Also, to refute this argument, in the game that NYU played at WashU last season, NYU only shot 12 free throws, while WashU shot 45 and WashU was +30 points at the FT line.  If Midwest refs call it close, you wouldnt expect it to be that much in favor of one team.   Also, NYU averaged less than 18 fouls per game for the whole season, but was called for 36 that game.  NYU also averaged less fouls per game than their opponents, yet was called for 20 more in that particular game. You would also eventually expect a team to adjust to the refs,  no team is dumb enough to continually foul until their 4 best players foul out of the game (WashU had 0 players foul out).

I am by no means an NYU fan, but I remember scratching my head about that game for while after it happened.

Hugenerd makes an important point: It is incumbent upon out-of-state visitors dealing with unfamiliar refs to adjust their style of play to the manner in which those refs are calling the game. If the refs call a looser game than the visitors are used to seeing, then they should recognize that ASAP and start trying to push the envelope more in terms of physical play. If the refs call a tighter game than the visitors are used to seeing, then they should ease up on the contact. In basketball, you should not only adjust on the fly to the other team, you should adjust to the refs as well.

If anyone is really serious about this whole Wash U home-cooking theory, he should chart out the whole season for the Bears with regard to fouls, both for and against and both home and away. Actually, it'd probably be more legit if it was charted out over more than one season.

[Ralph Turner]

+1 Gregory!   

[eastcoast]

Gregory, it doesn't make sense to think that there is a home-cooking situation happening at Wash U. aside from the regular home court advantage that most teams enjoy. The UAA should be legitimate enough of a confererence  to monitor it's home and away basketball contests. What happened last season to Brandeis and NYU in St. Louis was way off the charts in regard to the refereeing.  If a similar disparity in fouls called, freethrow attempts and foul-outs to players happened in another conference; lets say the ACC for example, this would'nt have have so easily dismissed by basketball people. Imagine Duke going into Wake and shooting 12 freethrows compared to Wake's 45 and losing by 1 in O.T..those refs would have some explaining to do. As for you're other point about visiting teams recognizing how the game is being officiated, in regard to the NYU-WashU game last year it was stated before that NYU fielded a very experienced team where 3 of the 5 players who fouled out were seniors that played  significant minutes for NYU for 4 years,  and were all-conference players in some regard. You can't say that they just  weren't used to midwestern refs.  I think the UAA is a legit conference, great academic schools; there happened to be 2 isolated instances last year. For whatever reason,  the refereeing was embarrasing and I don't know how anyone can defend what happened.  Brandeis and NYU played tough road games against a quality WashU. team and instead of a satisfying win they were awarded a loss.

[ILive4This]

Changing the course a bit, there is a strong possibility that the UAA which currently has 3 teams in the top 10, could have 3 in the top 5, come tomorrow. At the very least there may be the number 2,3 teams in the country assuming rochester and brandeis jump over the 2-5 teams who each lost this week.

This would make the meeting between Amherst and Brandeis a can't miss game, as without Deluca, it could still be a
1 v 3 meeting...same as last year except now its 1 and 3 in the country, not New England.

Just a thought...

[dblock]

Gregory, it doesn't make sense to think that there is a home-cooking situation happening at Wash U. aside from the regular home court advantage that most teams enjoy. The UAA should be legitimate enough of a confererence  to monitor it's home and away basketball contests. What happened last season to Brandeis and NYU in St. Louis was way off the charts in regard to the refereeing.  If a similar disparity in fouls called, freethrow attempts and foul-outs to players happened in another conference; lets say the ACC for example, this would'nt have have so easily dismissed by basketball people. Imagine Duke going into Wake and shooting 12 freethrows compared to Wake's 45 and losing by 1 in O.T..those refs would have some explaining to do. As for you're other point about visiting teams recognizing how the game is being officiated, in regard to the NYU-WashU game last year it was stated before that NYU fielded a very experienced team where 3 of the 5 players who fouled out were seniors that played  significant minutes for NYU for 4 years,  and were all-conference players in some regard. You can't say that they just  weren't used to midwestern refs.  I think the UAA is a legit conference, great academic schools; there happened to be 2 isolated instances last year. For whatever reason,  the refereeing was embarrasing and I don't know how anyone can defend what happened.  Brandeis and NYU played tough road games against a quality WashU. team and instead of a satisfying win they were awarded a loss.

we obviously saw what was going on with the refs. Coach Nesci told us over and over again to adjust to the refs, but we honestly couldn't do anything about it. The worst part was that we were getting beat up and we weren't getting a single call. If you don't think an inquiry was filed in regards to the refs, by not only NYU you are highly mistaken.

[Marty Peretz]

I wonder if D-Block is Michael "I throw elbows in defenders faces and wear an arm sock because I think I'm Allen Iverson" DeCorso. Sounds like he's still frustrated that NYU underachieved more than any team in the country and failed to get an NCAA bid despite arguably having the most talent in the conference. I suspect there's a reason that their quick freshman guard transferred: he wanted to go somewhere with a coach who had a clue and a program who isn't still talking about a one point loss a year ago.

[hugenerd]

I suspect there's a reason that their quick freshman guard transferred: he wanted to go somewhere with a coach who had a clue and a program who isn't still talking about a one point loss a year ago.

Maybe he just wanted to go D1?

[dblock]

I wonder if D-Block is Michael "I throw elbows in defenders faces and wear an arm sock because I think I'm Allen Iverson" DeCorso. Sounds like he's still frustrated that NYU underachieved more than any team in the country and failed to get an NCAA bid despite arguably having the most talent in the conference. I suspect there's a reason that their quick freshman guard transferred: he wanted to go somewhere with a coach who had a clue and a program who isn't still talking about a one point loss a year ago.

no i'm not Michael "I'm playing professionally in Europe while you are online badmouthing me" DeCorso.

First off i would like to congratulate on once again making a fool of yourself. Instead of admiting that Wash U gets a pretty sweet home court advantage, you continue to not make any points regardless of being presented with stats from not only myself, but Hugenerd, who has no allegiances to NYU. Maybe you should take a step back, revaluate your statements, grow up, and realize that you are wrong.

Oh and Mike wore a sleeve on his arm because he he hurt his bicep and needed a tension sleeve. Then he got used to playing with it, and didn't want to take it off. Any more ignorant statements you would like to make?

Oh and Matt Wilson? He couldn't afford NYU anymore and got some money from a D1 school. I don't know but I think a majority of players would choose to help out their parents financially, especially because he has a twin brother who was also attending NYU, and he got to go play at a D1 school.

Anything else Marty? Would you like to critique our warm-up routines? Maybe you would like to poke fun at Jess Mcantee for wearing a face mask last year. Maybe you'd like to get an investigation started to see if i put a hit out on Sean Wallis, maybe I was sooooo jealous and pissed that we didn't meet up to YOUR expectations for us.

[Marty Peretz]

Point(s) taken, but lighten up guy. Mocking DeCorso for wearing the arm sock was a joke--relax. And congrats to him for playing professionally. I'm sure he takes great comfort in the fact that little old me is just an internet loser who is envious of his out-of-this-world basketball skills and that's why I go on D3hoops and viciously attack him. The only remotely ad hominem attack I made that would be of any consequence concerned what I believe was his somewhat dirty defensive style. If that's worth drawing a stink about, so be it; I stand by it.

My conjecturing about Wilson was not meant to denigrate his inability to afford NYU. I can completely understand his decision. That said, the broader point of the post was to note that NYU underachieved last year and that it is poorly coached. Wilson was a fine player and I retract the statement about why I had mistakenly assumed he would have left NYU.

What this exchange continues to make clear is that NYU is still upset with one game at Wash.U. last year and this frustration has clouded their fans' ability to step back and acknowledge the extent to which the Violets underachieved last season. So, let's make a deal. I'll admit that Wash.U. got away with one last year (though it's not as much of a conspiracy theory as you posit it to be) when NYU came to the Field House. Indeed, even if the officiating was a bit lopsided in our favor, you only lost by 1, so any bad call could turn the come. In acknowledging this, I'm asking you admit that your basketball team was consistently out-coached and that, no matter what happened against Wash.U., NYU simply did not live up to its potential. Once we agree, we can anxiously await the match-ups between that wait us this UAA season.

Oh and those expectations were not MINE alone. There was a consensus in the D3 community that NYU was a very good basketball team and their ability to beat Wash.U. by more than any other opponent proves that. So if they didn't underachieve, how did they manage to defeat a Final 4 club by a larger margin than any other team in the nation?

[Gregory Sager]

Gregory, it doesn't make sense to think that there is a home-cooking situation happening at Wash U. aside from the regular home court advantage that most teams enjoy. The UAA should be legitimate enough of a confererence  to monitor it's home and away basketball contests. What happened last season to Brandeis and NYU in St. Louis was way off the charts in regard to the refereeing.  If a similar disparity in fouls called, freethrow attempts and foul-outs to players happened in another conference; lets say the ACC for example, this would'nt have have so easily dismissed by basketball people. Imagine Duke going into Wake and shooting 12 freethrows compared to Wake's 45 and losing by 1 in O.T..those refs would have some explaining to do. As for you're other point about visiting teams recognizing how the game is being officiated, in regard to the NYU-WashU game last year it was stated before that NYU fielded a very experienced team where 3 of the 5 players who fouled out were seniors that played  significant minutes for NYU for 4 years,  and were all-conference players in some regard. You can't say that they just  weren't used to midwestern refs.  I think the UAA is a legit conference, great academic schools; there happened to be 2 isolated instances last year. For whatever reason,  the refereeing was embarrasing and I don't know how anyone can defend what happened.  Brandeis and NYU played tough road games against a quality WashU. team and instead of a satisfying win they were awarded a loss.

I'm not saying that there is a home-cooking situation at Wash U, and I'm not saying that there isn't. I'm agnostic on the issue. But I would warn anyone against tallying up all of the fouls in a game and then pointing at the officials as being somehow at fault if one team went to the FT line much more than did its opponent. Different styles lend themselves to different fouling outcomes; a team that's overly reliant upon jumpshots will go to the line much, much less than does a team that is dependent upon dribble penetration or a back-to-the-basket scorer, or both. Also, game situations -- a team that has the lead late in a game often gets a parade of players sent to the line because the other team is forced to foul on every possession by the leading team -- often dictate eventual foul disparity as well. Thus, I'm not sure that your ACC example has much validity without knowing the particulars.

All I'm saying is that anyone who is making the case that the Bears are the beneficiaries of home cooking really needs to make that case based upon more comprehensive data than one or two games.

As to the idea that the NYU @ Wash U game of last season (as well as the Brandeis @ Wash U game, if that's being cited as an ancillary case) are "isolated instances" ... well, not everyone is buying that argument. It seems as though more than one poster is insinuating that Bears-friendly reffing is a regular occurrence in St. Louis. F'rinstance, here's what dblock had to say about this matter tonight:

Instead of admiting that Wash U gets a pretty sweet home court advantage,

Note the present tense ("gets" rather than "got").

But, as I said, I have no opinion one way or the other about how the officials call the games at WU Field House. I'm simply asking that anyone who makes an accusation of home cooking do the research first. It's not an accusation that should be made lightly, so Wash U's accusers should marshal more compelling evidence to make their case if they believe that this was more than an isolated instance or instances.

[David Collinge]

I agree with everything Greg says above, who (as usual) says it much more cogently and succintly than I ever could.  I'd add just one thing:

If you don't think an inquiry was filed in regards to the refs, by not only NYU you are highly mistaken.

So, as far as we know, the league has been advised of these complaints, and presumably has looked into them.  What results, if any, have there been to this inquiry?  Have any referees been dismissed or sanctioned, to anyone's knowledge?  It seems to me that the best result that anyone can hope for in a situation like this is that someone in authority takes an official look into the matter.  As it appears that this has happened, maybe we can all let it go now.

[ILive4This]

Agreed, I feel we can hold off on this until Wash U starts hosting UAA home games this year, and then we can all analyze the situation once again. Just a question, I know the disparity was found against NYU, Brandeis and Rochester, but any non east/northeast teams experience this issue?