MBB: University Athletic Association

[Marty Peretz]

All due respect but Nading and a healthy Wallis (or even the combination of a 75% Wallis and Kelly) will eat Corning and Pancratz's lunch any day of the week. And there's really no arguing about which team's supporting cast is better. Does the name Aaron Thompson ring a bell? I see AT going for 16 a game next year in what figures to be a more up-tempo offense...

[Gregory Sager]

Everyone wrote off Chicago last season, just like you're doing now, but who won the UAA in 2007-08?

Wash U is the clear favorite to win the league, and I don't see how that can be argued against by anybody. All I'm saying is that it's short-sighted and premature to write off the Maroons as not even being capable of anything but a distant third-place finish.

[Wydown Blvd.]

Two points on this. When "everyone wrote off Chicago last season," it was before All-American candidates Deluca and Wallis got hurt. Not trying to do too much what-if speculation, but when most predictions came out for conference play, it was with Wallis healthy and Deluca presumably making it back for conference play. Noone predicts injuries.

From Marty's perspective, Pancratz and Corning's production versus WashU was average at best, so it is really hard to see those two leading a formidable Chicago team next year.

Nate Hainje was "Big Shot Bob" of last years conference championship clinching game at Chicago. With that in mind, I would also believe that BU and WashU will be head and shoulders better teams than the rest of the UAA.

[Gregory Sager]

Two points on this. When "everyone wrote off Chicago last season," it was before All-American candidates Deluca and Wallis got hurt. Not trying to do too much what-if speculation, but when most predictions came out for conference play, it was with Wallis healthy and Deluca presumably making it back for conference play. Noone predicts injuries.

Wash U won the national championship without Sean Wallis. You can't have it both ways. Since the Bears overcame his absence and won the national title in spite of his loss, then the significantly lesser accomplishment of winning the league should've been well within their grasp -- and in fact it was, as the Bears were in position to win the UAA outright going into the final game of the regular season. However you look at it, the preseason predictions weren't driven off-course by the loss of Wallis. This is particularly true when you take into consideration the fact that the decisive WU @ UC contest that became the UAA's de facto championship game took place at a point in the season (March 1) when the Bears were already well accustomed to playing with Ross Kelley at the point rather than Wallis.

From Marty's perspective, Pancratz and Corning's production versus WashU was average at best, so it is really hard to see those two leading a formidable Chicago team next year.

Is it really?

In last season's finale at the Ratner Center, Corning had an 11-and-7 game against Wash U and Pancratz scored 15. More impressively, Pancratz dished out nine assists in that game and only had one turnover. I was at that game, and I can vouch for the fact that both Maroons played very well. If Marty thinks that these performances were "average at best", then he and I clearly have two very different ideas as to what constitutes "average". I'll take an "average" point guard who scores 15 and has a 9:1 A/TO ratio on my team anyday (and twice on Sundays).

Marty predicts that Aaron Thompson will score 16 ppg in 2008-09, which is four and a half points per game more than he averaged this past season. In other words, he's basing his projection of Thompson's production next season upon something other than last season's numbers, which is perfectly valid. Players often get better from one season to the next; that's the nature of college basketball. If Thompson can do so, why not Corning and Pancratz?

Corning averaged 17.7 ppg last season and was Chicago's leading scorer. Pancratz averaged 11.6 ppg. Machones averaged 11.5 ppg in Chicago's last four games (NYU, Brandeis, Wash U, and UWSP). They'll do fine next season.

Nate Hainje was "Big Shot Bob" of last years conference championship clinching game at Chicago. With that in mind, I would also believe that BU and WashU will be head and shoulders better teams than the rest of the UAA.

That's a pretty spurious reason to toss Chicago onto next year's scrap heap. Yeah, Hainje hit some big shots last winter, including the one with :49 left that beat the Bears in that final game of the regular season. (He also missed some big shots, such as a trey at the buzzer that would've beaten Rochester in the Ratner Center, but that's neither here nor there.) But Brandon Woodhead and Jesse Meyer hit plenty of big shots the year before as well, and the year before that, too, and before they were hitting them Scott Fisher and Derek Reich hit them ... and so on and so forth. Just because Hainje's gone doesn't mean that nobody will be able to step up and be the money player in crunch time for the Maroons next year.

[hopefan]

Greg, just to add a different point of view

The only time I saw Chicago last year was when they played AT Wash U.

They were awful

Your "good buddy" FCNews stated at that time that they likely were at a competitive level with one of the two or three top SLIAC teams  -  on that day, I couldn't disagree with him  (and FC and I don't agree on much)

Was I shocked at the Bear's regular season ending loss to Wash U - you bet.  But wow, from my single game view of Chicago, they fell far short of the Wash U talent level.  At the time of Chicago's win over Wash U, I chalked it up to the Bears looking ahead to the tourney, rather than a shortcoming in talent or coaching to Chicago.

And as to Aaron Thompson, he was outstanding down in Salem - his ppg were in the 12 range over the year because he is a streaky outside shooter - but with Ruths out of the middle this year, I think he'll be a more diverse offensive player like Tyler Nading - I firmly agree he could be a 16 ppg man this season.

[Gregory Sager]

Nobody's arguing that the Maroons weren't awful in that game down in St. Louis, Hopefan. The Chicago coaches and players would be the first to agree with you. But you're basing your opinion of them upon a highly atypical performance; that's always a danger in college basketball. It's all too easy to see a team once and decide that you've got them all figured out. You need to step back and take a look at the bigger picture and see in the larger context if that game was truly indicative of the team's ability, or if it was an aberration. And as far as the 2007-08 Maroons were concerned, the bigger picture is this: Chicago won the UAA outright last season. The Maroons went 18-8 overall and 11-3 in conference. Were they the greatest thing since sliced bread? No. Were they the most talented team in the UAA last season? No. But they were much better than what you saw in that game, so if you're basing your opinion of the 2007-08 Maroons off of that one game, then you've missed the boat.

And if Mark Edwards and his Bears are 100% honest, there's no way that they would agree with any assessment that they were "looking ahead to the tourney" when they lost to Chicago in the final game of the regular season. I mean, come on -- the game was for the UAA title, and it was against the Bears' archrivals. If you can't get up for a game like that, then you don't have a pulse!

I saw no indication whatsoever that the Bears were phoning it in that Saturday afternoon. They played hard, and they wanted to win that game. They simply got beat that day by another talented team -- a somewhat less talented team, to be sure, but a talented team nevertheless -- that outexecuted and outhustled them.

(And I'm not disagreeing at all with Marty's contention that Aaron Thompson could score 16 ppg next season. I'm just saying that Matt Corning and Jake Pancratz could improve upon their scoring marks from last season, too.)

[Wydown Blvd.]

Finally some talk on this board. Usually the off-season is extremely boring on this board...

Greg, you missed my point. My point is that people weren't "writing off" Chicago in the middle of the season. Speaking for myself, I didn't think they had enough to win the UAA in comparison to a healthy WashU AND Brandeis roster. That was my original thought. Pre-season conference predictions take into consideration games between all teams, not just head to head.

Second, I stand by my point that between the two games that Chicago face WashU,  it could be conceived that Pancratz and Corning played average at best.
Pancratz was 2/10 from the field with 1 assist and 2 t/o's  in the first game. Combine that with the conference ending game, and I still think someone can consider the performances against the WU "average." A very good game and a very bad one. Corning had 7 points, 4 boards, and 3 turnovers in the first game. Hainje was the only one to show up for BOTH games against WashU (of course, he simply did what seniors should do).

Aaron Thompson will probably finally just play his natural position as a 2 because of Wallis' return. Marty probably also took that into consideration in his prediction of Thompson's point production. That should make a huge difference because WashU's offense isn't natural built for point guard scoring production.

(As an aside, this is really just discussion that caught my eye. But, I haven't looked at returning rosters to make any summer predictions, but I had to comment on Marty's post, because it looked like some fun. I neither agree nor disagree with any definitive view on the returnees for any UAA team.)

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, you missed my point. My point is that people weren't "writing off" Chicago in the middle of the season.

The "middle of the season"? You never mentioned the middle of the season in your previous post. You did mention Deluca's and Wallis's injuries, but they were scratched after the second Brandeis and third Wash U games, respectively, not in the middle of the season. There's a big difference between late November and the middle of the season.

But that's really beside the point. The issue at hand is the preseason comments made by UAA fans who were writing off the Maroons last year. That's what I brought up in my initial retort to Marty. Why? Because it's the preseason right now -- the preseason for 2008-09 -- and this is shaping up to be a reprise of last preseason in terms of Chicago being prematurely dismissed as a possible contender.

Second, I stand by my point that between the two games that Chicago face WashU,  it could be conceived that Pancratz and Corning played average at best.
Pancratz was 2/10 from the field with 1 assist and 2 t/o's  in the first game. Combine that with the conference ending game, and I still think someone can consider the performances against the WU "average." A very good game and a very bad one. Corning had 7 points, 4 boards, and 3 turnovers in the first game. Hainje was the only one to show up for BOTH games against WashU (of course, he simply did what seniors should do).

I'd argue that the second game between the two teams counted for more, since both the Maroons and the Bears knew going into that final Saturday that the tilt in Ratner would be for all the marbles. But when you put the two games together, yeah, you're right, Corning and Pancratz were mediocre. But were they average players for the entire year, not just the two Wash U games? It's pretty apparent that the answer is no -- which is why I went after Marty for dissing the two of them in the first place. Marty used a small and selective sample size (well, technically you did in speaking on Marty's behalf ), rather than taking the entire season's worth of work by the two Maroons into consideration. I saw almost all of Chicago's home games this past season, and one of their road games as well (against a pretty good Wheaton team, a team that they faced while Hainje was in street clothes due to a knee injury). I saw most of Chicago's home games the year before, too. By now I have a pretty good idea of the caliber of Pancratz and Corning. I'm not so sure that Marty does.

[Wydown Blvd.]

From my understanding, Deluca had been attempting a comeback at the middle of the season. Instead of middle of season, I probably should have said "in-season." That was my mistake.

IMHO people had "written off" Chicago in the preseason. And with injuries, you never know what will happen. Thats all I was saying. And I reiterate that the preseason is pre-injury time. (obviously pre-newcomer time too, but thats not on topic right now) That's all.

Now, I don't know what games Marty was basing anything on of course... But, I know he just graduated, so the games that he has seen may or may not influence his answer. And with that said, where the heck is Marty? lol... (I have a crapload of exposure to UChicago games too.)

My biggest trouble is in separating or distinguishing talented teams from winning teams. In that regard, I am much better at predicting a series (and sometimes tourney) than a single game.

[Marty Peretz]

Wash.U. usually brings in two studs a year, with the hope that the supporting crop of recruits turns into players as well. This year's big duo is Richter and Seymour. I'm told that both are very, very good and that both should see time as freshman. I haven't heard anything on the rest of the class, but I'm hoping for surprises. O'Boyle and Ruths were the two for the class of 2008, with Schermerhorn being the lone other senior to grind it out for the whole four years. Nading and Wallis, the two focal points for the class of 2009, both remain but their classmates have since moved on to focus on the books. Cam Smith and Aaron Thompson are obviously the glue for the class of 2010, but Ross Kelly, Zach Kelly and Jon wolff (and to some extent Tom Blount) have proven their worth as players and should be around for the coming season, with both Kellys prominently figuring into the mix . Caleb Knepper and Spencer Gay are the notable pair in the class of 2011, with Brent Sapp also having seen some time as a frosh due to Wallis' injury. With so much returning talent and a couple of apparently terrific rookies, it will be interesting to see who Edwards uses in his regular rotation come November. With such a strong class of rising juniors, there are legitimately 10-11 guys who could garner serious minutes next season, making Wash.U. a much deeper team than in years past...Obviously a nice problem for a coach to have...

[hopefan]

It's a small world  -  My alma mater out east considered Jake Seymor their number 1 recruit.  I was asked to contact Jake as an alum and give him a big sales pitch, but in the same conversation, I was told he was also considering Wash U.   I had to decline ....   besides feeling I was too removed from my alma mater's program and current campus happenings to adequately speak about it, there was no way I could bring myself to compete against the Wash U program I've supported for the last 20 years .

While I regret that Jake did not end up at my alma mater, I'm thrilled he'll be playing for Wash U and that I'll be able to watch him for the next four years.

[mark_reichert]

I don't know where else to post this but does anybody else watch the "CBS Sports Presents Championships of the NCAA" shows?  The fall show had the WashU Volleyball championship and the spring show the Men's Tennis championship, but basketball did not show up in the winter show or anywhere else.  Does CBS cover the Division II and Division III basketball championships as part of their Division I March Madness coverage, and if so does anybody have it recorded?

[Ralph Turner]

"CBS Sports Presents Championships of the NCAA" will air at 2 p.m. Eastern time/11 a.m. Pacific time Sunday, June 22, on CBS Sports.   Highlights and stories from baseball, golf, rowing, softball, tennis and outdoor track & field will be featured in the program.  For the 2007-2008 academic year, CBS Sports has featured 44 of the NCAA's 88 championships in the three seasonal shows.

Courtesy of TigerDad, the father of all-American Chris Baer, Trinity University.

I am not sure when they replay it!

[Pat Coleman]

I don't know where else to post this but does anybody else watch the "CBS Sports Presents Championships of the NCAA" shows?  The fall show had the WashU Volleyball championship and the spring show the Men's Tennis championship, but basketball did not show up in the winter show or anywhere else.  Does CBS cover the Division II and Division III basketball championships as part of their Division I March Madness coverage, and if so does anybody have it recorded?

This show does not include championships that were televised elsewhere.

Not sure if CBS does anything else with it other than its original airing on CBS College Sports.

[Wydown Blvd.]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/andy_staples/07/11/small.colleges/index.html?eref=T1

Article about travel in D3 from another poster. The author uses the UAA as an example of smart traveling.