MBB: Skyline Conference

[BklynBasketball]

in the discussion of Bard...lets lay off the guys, raptormania and the likes are the only REGULAR posters on here, while i do think its obvious they overstate bard's prowess, i think they do this in jest and i enjoy it.

Bard fields competitive teams, this has been a bad year for them, as for Poly, both teams had NUMEROUS injuries to key players, im not saying either team is a powerhouse but both are certainly better than their records, and yes ive seen them both play this year. Bard is not a terrible team neither is Poly. I epect both teams to improve next year and be in the playoff hunt for the 5th , 6th  spots.

Bard having higher academic standards? Not really a valid arguement in my opinion, the league has SUNY schools in it which have very low tuition and their academic standards are (not LOW0 lower than the avg of the league. Then you have middle tier school like MSMC and MSV where its more expensive and more academically difficult to get in. Next you have Bard and Poly which are EXTREMELY competitive academically and VERY expensive. Theyre still in theleague. The difference btwn Bard and MSMC is the same as the difference btwn MSMc and Suny Farmingdale. No? The skyline isnt an even playing field financially or academically, but who cares? the ball is round in every game, the hoops is 10 feet. Play ball you know?


As far as the best BIG in the league, Walsh doesnt enter thAt discussion for me, hes a wing player. Prosper should be, he has the physical tools, however I dont know whats up, he has the ability to produce higher numbers than he is. In my opinion its hands down Campbell, although he has the skills to play the wing like walsh, but he is just an animal down low. I dont think anyone in the league can contain him. period. Niblock is also a workhorse, he is seen as a bit of a dirty player, but he works his tail off and usually outworks his opponent gotta respect that.

player of the year is campbell in my opinion, with honors to Walsh, Billups, Santana, Cooke and Acree.

Tonights games are going to be highly competitive, MSV beat the Privateers twice this year, yet theyre still the underdogs. Should be good game, neither team matches up well with the other teams strength, so whoever executes THEIR game should win.

Purchase Westbury is a VERY even matchup and could be the best game of the tourney, save the finals which should be a WAR btwn the Rams and Eagles.

[Queens]

St Pats and St Benedicts would most likely win every d3 conference in the country, there starting 5s feature guys who will we all be watching on ESPN regulary and who possibly could be playing in the NBA.  Thats not much of a knock on the skyline by saying that.  I seen St Benedicts lose to Mater Dai ( I dont know if i spelled that right) actually they got killed.  Mater Dai featured two twin bothers at 6'10 both committed to UNC.  So saying that a highschool team would win a d3 college conference is not much of a knock on the conference.

[Queens]

Brooklyn,

Great points on the tutition and the academics on each school, i didnt even realize that was the case in the skyline.  Skyline has to be the only conference in the country that has such a disparity in price of schools.  Thats a huge factor if not more than academic standards of each school.  I would think more people can get into Bard and Poly then can actually afford to pay 40 thousand a year, am i right?

[raptor31]

Billups is in the discussion. What are the all conf teams? I got them like this.

First Team
Campbell - Farmingdale
Santana - Farmingdale
JJ Walsh - St. Joe's
Billups - Purchase
Justin White - Bard

Second Team
Nick DiMaggio - MSV
David Acree - St. Joe's
Lester Prosper - Old Westbury
Arjun Ohri - Polytechnic
Jerrell Lewis - Purchase

Third Team
Chris Harrison - MSM
Joe Cooke - MSV
Andre Cooper - Maritime
Martin Leibovich - Yeshiva
Shane DeNully - Old Westbury

Obviously there will now be 25 posts about how JWhite is not first team but I think he and Billups stats speak for themselves. This is an individual accomplishment not a team accomplishment. Both of these kids had tremendous years that I think outshine the kids from the better teams. Ohri I put on 2nd team simply because he didn't do as much all around as the other 2. Acree, while still having a great year didn't score as much and his % are lower than last year. The other 3 first teamers are no brainers. DiMaggio 2nd team over Cooke (3rd team) because he did a little more assist wise and I think he ran that team well. Prosper 2nd because of his impact on the game and he had nice numbers (14ppg 10rpg 2 blocks). Jerrell Lewis didn't have as great of a year as advertised to start but still was 2nd team worthy. 3rd team you could argue a couple guys but I think Cooper deserves to be there because he had a nice year and Maritime finished surprisingly high. Leibovich is deserving and the one you could prolly argue on would be DeNully but I think his assist numbers (especially ass/to) put him on the team. Probably no better PG in terms of running his team and getting the ball to the right people than DeNully.

[raptor31]

Once again valid points on the academics and I agree at the end of the day you have to play ball but you also can't rip a school for "not recruiting" when you are an assistant coach at a school that has requirements of 80 avg and 1000 SAT, ya know? The disparity is what it is and the Skyline is a weird league in that way. It will be tough for Bard and Poly to compete and recruit the same class kids overall as a Farmingdale, OW, or St. Joe's. No problem and I have never brought that up until people starting ripping Coach Wood for not recruiting when they don't really understand the full situation.

Bard is actually around 55 G's a year now which is crazy to think about and the point that more kids get into the school and can't afford it is a HUGE one!! Every year there are impact players who's first choice is Bard, they get in academically and then at the end of the day either don't get enough aid or can't afford the price put in front of them. All of this is a moot point because it is the hand dealt and what we have to work around. Given all of this and the past I am proud of where Bard is now and where we are going!

Obviously, Pats and Bens would win the Skyline, I was just responding to a point that a bunch of high school teams would beat Bard and how that is not valid considering there are high school teams that would be incredible D3 teams.

Ive got MSV and Westbury tonight! MSV's style is tough to guard and Maritime doesn't match up well with it. Westbury is just a little too strong all around for Purchase. Panthers will need something huge from Billups or Lewis to win this.

[Raptormania!]

Once again valid points on the academics and I agree at the end of the day you have to play ball but you also can't rip a school for "not recruiting" when you are an assistant coach at a school that has requirements of 80 avg and 1000 SAT, ya know? The disparity is what it is and the Skyline is a weird league in that way. It will be tough for Bard and Poly to compete and recruit the same class kids overall as a Farmingdale, OW, or St. Joe's. No problem and I have never brought that up until people starting ripping Coach Wood for not recruiting when they don't really understand the full situation.

This is a fair point, Raptor31- but I will also say that I like the range of schools in the Skyline. There's more than one way to get to an elite level, and it is about time Bard challenges itself athletically. As you said, I am also proud of how far the program has come and where it is going.

I guess I view Bard's standards and cost less in terms of an excuse for when Bard comes up short than something that accentuates the positives when Bard takes steps forward.

[skylinestar]

walsh can score from all over the court yes, but he has been virtually unstoppable with low post position...prosper has been too inconsistent, with his size he should dominate the league and im not sure he does, campbell is a very good finisher who can take over a game. Niblock has very good foot work and a good player, however isnt the same caliber as walsh or campbell...i havent heard the dirty player talk

[raptor31]

Once again, it was a point made to dispute the fact that we don't recruit at Bard. I have never mentioned it as an excuse and don't really think it should be but people should understand certain things before they rip the job Coach Wood has done. It isn't the same situation at Bard and shouldn't be treated as such. The fact of the matter is Bard can't just get in any transfer they can find like a few of the other schools have. If you are saying  this doesn't make it tougher on them than other teams then that is false. Usually conferences are made up of schools that are at a level playing field.

In Division 1 there are only a few leagues that hold their athletes to the same standards as the rest of the student body and those are the Ivy and Patriot (there is even some give at those schools). In Division 3 if you look at league breakdown, most schools are on a level playing field in terms of admission (UAA are some of the elite schools academically in the country and draw a high level basketball player as well, the NESCAC and Liberty can be said the same of). There is a correlation between the two and while Bard has the potential to get to the level of the higher end academic/athletic combo schools it is not there yet and more improtantly won't get there until the support from the school comes. Raptormania! you know better than anyone that sports is a little more than an irritating blip on the radar screen to most Bard Administration (although there has been a nice uprise of support in certain factions, i.e. admissions and a few other select places).

To do this thing the right way and really make it possible for the school to start to compete on the highest level you need full time coaches across the board, full time assistants in certain places, bigger recruiting budgets (not ones that run out a month into the season every year), and a little give in the admissions standards so that you can take a kid with a 3.2 and 1300 (there have been countless kids with those numbers rejected admission). I think there is still a big task ahead of Coach Wood and thus far he has met it head on and done all he can to change the culture of the place. 7 years ago there were 5 people in the stands, a table skirt on the scorers table and 3 varsity high school basketball players on the team. A little different day and age now and he has been the one to make this happen. I doubt any Skyline coach envies the situation at Bard and I am not sure many guys would have stayed for as long as he has. Countless recruits that got away because of standards and money, a lot of losing seasons that don't seem like they are going anywhere, and no support from the campus as a whole. Having faith in a process and continually working towards goals that aren't over night fixes is something Coach has to be commended for. I don't know how much longer he wants to be there but if he does stay 7 more years I would expect we will be sitting here talking about how Bard Basketball is a winning program in a legit conference and maybe even done some unspeakable things that we will get thrown off the board for saying!! Like winning a conf championship!

[OxyBob]

OxyBob, you don't see much Division III basketball on the east coast obviously. I was on the bench for that loss to Cal Tech and I was utterly shocked by how good Cal Tech was.

I was also at the Bard-Caltech game. Except for CIT players and coaches, I may be the only person in America who's seen them win their last three games against Bard, Gallaudet (see my avatar) and Polytechnic. I have followed Caltech basketball for many years, and although the Beavers are not my team I have always had a soft spot for them because they epitomize everything that's good about D-III, the last bastion of the true amateur student-athlete. I even gave up watching my own team play last Saturday to instead watch CIT play Redlands and maybe snap their 24-year, 285-game conference losing streak, but, alas, it was not to be.

Keep the faith with your cohort Raptormania!

OxyBob

[BklynBasketball]

Once again valid points on the academics and I agree at the end of the day you have to play ball but you also can't rip a school for "not recruiting"

I dont know if this was directed at me, i hope it was not bc i have NEVER ripped Bard in any way. I think Coach Woods does a good job up there in a nearly impossible position. 50k is ALOT and when youre in that tier youre competing with UAA and NESCACs like soimeone said. I think the progression Bard has made has been commendable and im sure they will continue to get better. I think they have a good team, i saw them lose a somewhat close one to Poly and they scrapped the entire 40 minutes, never giving up. I think, like i said earlier, the raptors will be in the playoff hunt next year.

[Cyclone0205]

Bard needs to go the Stevens route.


Stevens was a nothing Skyline team that has since turned its athletic program into one of the best in the country.  They have admissions standards that are even, if not slightly harder than Bard.   (1350 vs. 1330 on the SAT, 58% of incoming in top 10% vs. 54%)..plus Stevens has one of the highest credit requirements of any school in the country.  

*THIS IS NOT A KNOCK ON BARD, BOTH ARE GREAT SCHOOLS...ACADEMICS ARE VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL!*


That being said, Stevens has turned its athletics from nothing to a program where Men's Soccer is a national title contender every year, and Men's Lacrosse, Women's Soccer are both top 25 teams every year.  Additionally, Men's basketball (prior to this season) was coming off of a Sweet 16 trip, followed by an ECAC championship.


The formula was pretty simple:

1)  Hire an Athletic Director who's job is only to worry about athletics!  Don't have him answer to Deans, Teachers, etc.  Just focusing on getting funding and hiring the best coaches.

2) MUST have full time head and full time assistant coaches.  Without it, you will not win.  Period.

3) You actually do not need to be softer on admissions.  Stevens admission process for athletes has actually gotten harder as they've improved, not easier.  Lower admissions standards only furthers the divide between academic sphere (professors and such) and athletes.


4)  How do you solve 3?  Simple...more money for athletes.  The athletes you want aren't the ones you have to lower your academics for.  But the ones that do qualify, you can't lose because of money.  That is where Stevens made their move.  They started invested more in their scholarship funds and thus had a bigger resource pool to provide financial aid and scholarships.  

[raptor31]

Not directed at you BK, directed at a previous poster who said we needed to "start recruiting." I was saying I agree with your point that at the end of the day the rims are 10 ft and the ball is round and guys have to get it done on the court but people can't ignore the other situations that go along with that in college basketball that are sometimes out of a coaches hands.

[BklynBasketball]

Not directed at you BK, directed at a previous poster who said we needed to "start recruiting." I was saying I agree with your point that at the end of the day the rims are 10 ft and the ball is round and guys have to get it done on the court but people can't ignore the other situations that go along with that in college basketball that are sometimes out of a coaches hands.

totally agree! just didnt want you to think i was ripping Bard...

[raptor31]

Well put cyclone, I completely agree except the loosening of standards academically should be done in the same way Bard does for a talented singer, pianist, actor, etc. I am not saying take a kid with a 2.8 and 1100. Bard has taken kids that maybe have a 3.2 and 1250 because it adds to your campus to have a potential world class violinist, future actor, etc. and these kids are bringing something else besides what they do in a classroom. I simply would like to see them give this same little bit of room for a kid who will come on campus and be a star at a sport. The administration doesn't seem to think athletics is a vital enough part of campus life to give this same leeway(although they seem to think art and music are). I agree that you can't create a divide between athletics and the school by taking kids who don't measure up, but diversifying your campus with a different type of kid like a successful athlete, even if he is a slight notch below, isn't always bad thing. I appreciate your view on things and couldn't agree more that full time coaches and assistants is the first and most crucial step to being successful. It is tough to ask a part time assistant coach to do as much work as a full time when that guy has to substitute teach during the day or work another 9-5 type job. It is a must have if Bard wants to raise up a level!!!

[Cyclone0205]

Ohh, I agree completely that they should diversify their campus.  It's sort of a double edge sword though, because schools like Bard and "old" Stevens don't/didn't value athletics enough to let in athletes with less than ideal criteria.


I'll give you the example of how it works.  All the Men's programs at Stevens were pretty bad.  However, once they hired the full time coaches/assistants, they were able to do more work in recruiting.  Because of this, they were able to recruit a good crop of athletes, across sports, that also met or exceeded the admissions requirements.

Now, this is where the luck comes in.  These athletes, having already satisfied the academics of the campus, then went out and started winning.  A lot.  Because of this, the campus, professors included, get more interested in sports. 

Now, second go round, you go back to admissions with a winning program, having done it (part luck, part skill) through recruiting qualified kids who could win.  When you go into admissions the second time around, that's the time to push for letting in the less than ideal candidate, because you have something to base it off.


Basically, you have to kind of get lucky with the first group and hope that they are as good on the court as they are off it, and then once you've established that you'll be able to push the envelope on other kids.  But again, that goes back to both you and my main point..got to have full time staff in place to find these kids.