Eastern Collegiate Football Conference

[pg04]

Thanks, Pat! +K

I was scrolling through past news stories but my eyes sometimes get lazy  . Thanks for the tip on the team, I hadn't thought of that.

It does seem like more and more a conference carousel page is needed!

[jknezek]

It does seem like more and more a conference carousel page is needed!

And maybe a doomsday clock for the incredible, shrinking, at-large pool? 

[Pat Coleman]

It does seem like more and more a conference carousel page is needed!

And maybe a doomsday clock for the incredible, shrinking, at-large pool? 

LOL, Pool B armageddon!

[H.C.Mosely1895]

Agreed, but most of these schools didn't even have a strong or hell even a football tradition before the league began. I don't think many people will be sad to see the league go since many believed, and rightfully so, that league was created just to steal an AQ.

100% this. Good riddance to a league that did absolutely nothing for D-III as a whole except perpetuate its biggest problem of lack of parity by virtue of making one additional playoff game a year meaningless. The only time they weren't blown out in the playoffs was when the 500-mile rule and hosting requirements gifted them a home game against MIT last year. A joke of a conference that hurt D-III football more than it helped

I don't shed any tears for the loss of the ECFC. It's a conference that really highlights my point. Outside of Castleton, Norwich has very little, if any, contact with any of the other schools in any of the other sports. I understand a lot of schools don't sponsor football, which makes a perfect alignment difficult. But, I think Norwich should strive to be associated with schools like Coast Guard, Kings Point, Maine Maritime, Mass Maritime - like-minded schools (and of course it never hurts to be associated with a school like MIT). It's a big part of Becker's reasoning for joining the CCC - they just fit better.

But, in my perfect world, Norwich, Kings Point, and the Maritimes would be full NEWMAC members so that there could be some continuity between sports and across the seasons so rivalries and a sense of community could develop. I'm rambling.

[NED3Guy]

We're all talking about the ECFC like it's going away, but the fact is; all they have to do is find another crappy team who wants an easy path to an AQ to join them and they'll stay intact.

Bigger issue is the ease at which conferences can get started and be granted an AQ.

Any talk of altering the AQ / tournament format?

Side note: ECFC all conference came out today. Thoughts?

[desertcat1]

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone. Safe travels.

[ccd494]

Agreed, but most of these schools didn't even have a strong or hell even a football tradition before the league began. I don't think many people will be sad to see the league go since many believed, and rightfully so, that league was created just to steal an AQ.

100% this. Good riddance to a league that did absolutely nothing for D-III as a whole except perpetuate its biggest problem of lack of parity by virtue of making one additional playoff game a year meaningless. The only time they weren't blown out in the playoffs was when the 500-mile rule and hosting requirements gifted them a home game against MIT last year. A joke of a conference that hurt D-III football more than it helped

So should, say, Husson just drop football?  What else were they supposed to do other than found their own league?  Maine Maritime will NEVER let Husson join a league that MMA plays in. 

The attitude of fans of established D3 teams is really a turn off to those of us who follow newer programs.  We aren't deemed worthy of joining your established conferences, we aren't supposed to form our own conferences, it seems like you all just want us to stay independent, play whatever games you deign to allow us to play (probably resulting in 5 game seasons), and you want to belittle our efforts as you do it.  Nice group of people, D3 football fans are.

[pg04]

Agreed, but most of these schools didn't even have a strong or hell even a football tradition before the league began. I don't think many people will be sad to see the league go since many believed, and rightfully so, that league was created just to steal an AQ.

100% this. Good riddance to a league that did absolutely nothing for D-III as a whole except perpetuate its biggest problem of lack of parity by virtue of making one additional playoff game a year meaningless. The only time they weren't blown out in the playoffs was when the 500-mile rule and hosting requirements gifted them a home game against MIT last year. A joke of a conference that hurt D-III football more than it helped

So should, say, Husson just drop football?  What else were they supposed to do other than found their own league?  Maine Maritime will NEVER let Husson join a league that MMA plays in. 

The attitude of fans of established D3 teams is really a turn off to those of us who follow newer programs.  We aren't deemed worthy of joining your established conferences, we aren't supposed to form our own conferences, it seems like you all just want us to stay independent, play whatever games you deign to allow us to play (probably resulting in 5 game seasons), and you want to belittle our efforts as you do it.  Nice group of people, D3 football fans are.

I am trying to figure a way to respond to this without adding more fire to your last line.

First, no one is telling any of the teams to throw away their programs. They should be proud of their programs. The major beef as stated is that the creation of the conference gave teams that would not have a chance in most (every?) other conference a chance to make the playoffs. In the end, this spot takes one that could be used as a Pool B or C for a team that may perform better in the playoffs. Now, of course, the goal of the D3 playoffs isn't to get ALL the best teams in, but this particular set up seemed like a bid grab by otherwise incapable teams. 

Let's look at the Playoff performances:

Norwich 2015 (lucky to not have been sent to Mount): 37-0 loss to Albright
Husson 2014: 27-20 loss at home to MIT (to a conference also not known for prowess in the playoffs)
Gallaudet 2013: 34-7 loss to Hobert
Mount Ida 2012: 73-14 loss to Wesley
Norwich 2011: 62-10 loss to Delaware Valley
SUNY-Maritime: 60-0 loss to Alfred

Record: 0-6
Total Score: 293 - 51
This is why those interested in the east region feel iffy about the conference.

The conference was set up as sort of an island of misfit toys. Off in New England, unable to really become part of the conferences in NY Or NJ (although Norwich was part of one and opted for the easier route). I'm not part of the administration so I don't know how they could have avoided this or if they wanted to.

[ccd494]

The conference was set up as sort of an island of misfit toys. Off in New England, unable to really become part of the conferences in NY Or NJ (although Norwich was part of one and opted for the easier route). I'm not part of the administration so I don't know how they could have avoided this or if they wanted to.

I don't dispute that the conference didn't do well in the playoffs.  But (and I can only speak for Husson), they asked every single conference in New England if they could join.  They all said no.  The established conferences can't say "You can't play with us!" then get mad when they create their own opportunity to play. 

The easiest way to not lose a playoff spot to the ECFC was to take the ECFC teams into their own conferences.  Look at what is happening now, the ECFC teams that are being offered spots in better conferences are taking them.  Clearly they didn't join the ECFC thinking "let's find the easiest way to make the playoffs!"  They founded the ECFC thinking "let's be able to play a full schedule" and then the opportunity to make the playoffs came as a result, because there were enough schools out there that were being ostracized to do so.

[Bombers798891]

Look at what is happening now, the ECFC teams that are being offered spots in better conferences are taking them.  Clearly they didn't join the ECFC thinking "let's find the easiest way to make the playoffs!"  They founded the ECFC thinking "let's be able to play a full schedule" and then the opportunity to make the playoffs came as a result, because there were enough schools out there that were being ostracized to do so.

Fair point. Although in fairness, Norwich was part of a better conference, which they were a doormat in.

[ExTartanPlayer]

The conference was set up as sort of an island of misfit toys. Off in New England, unable to really become part of the conferences in NY Or NJ (although Norwich was part of one and opted for the easier route). I'm not part of the administration so I don't know how they could have avoided this or if they wanted to.

I don't dispute that the conference didn't do well in the playoffs.  But (and I can only speak for Husson), they asked every single conference in New England if they could join.  They all said no.  The established conferences can't say "You can't play with us!" then get mad when they create their own opportunity to play. 

The easiest way to not lose a playoff spot to the ECFC was to take the ECFC teams into their own conferences.  Look at what is happening now, the ECFC teams that are being offered spots in better conferences are taking them.  Clearly they didn't join the ECFC thinking "let's find the easiest way to make the playoffs!"  They founded the ECFC thinking "let's be able to play a full schedule" and then the opportunity to make the playoffs came as a result, because there were enough schools out there that were being ostracized to do so.

+K

I always felt the idea that the ECFC was created to steal a playoff spot was a little silly (sorry, Bombers).  I thought a more realistic depiction of that was "Let's find a place to play a full schedule against teams that we can actually compete with."  I some Empire 8 fans felt a little sore because Norwich left their tougher league, where they got their asses kicked, and started going to the playoffs in the easier league, but I don't think "stealing a playoff berth" was on their mind so much as "we clearly aren't going to devote the resources necessary to compete with the good teams in our current league, so let's find a place where we can get a game on our own level."  The fact that they started going to the playoffs was a happy side benefit of joining a league that they'd actually be competitive in.

ccd, thanks for sharing Husson's experience.  I don't know if that's true of all ECFC schools, but it wouldn't surprise me if several ended up in the ECFC more out of convenience than anything else.

Bombers, I love you man, but I do think there's an important point to cover here.  We've talked a lot about the imbalances between certain institutions and leagues around D3 and what that means for the playoff structure (should we keep AQ's or not? how should they be earned? etc).  One of the things we've discussed is that UWW, Mount, and a few others clearly put more eggs into the basket than most of D3, and furthermore, that a school like Ithaca (while working to remain competitive) just realistically is never going to devote that same level of resources. 

So...Ithaca looks to play in the pool that has teams like them (just having left the Empire 8 for the Liberty League, this is especially apt, although Ithaca was obviously competing just fine in football in the Empire 8).  Can't blame anyone for seeking out their peer institutions to play ball, right?  Playing in a league with similar institutions where you can be competitive is what most D3 schools should be doing; the national championship is irrelevant to >90% of Division III, so the focus ought to be finding schools like your own to compete with for a conference title. 

So, cool.  Ithaca decided that they didn't want to be in a league with a bunch of dissimilar schools any more, and found a pond with more similar schools.  Isn't that what (most) of the ECFC did?  The misfit toys, new programs, and cellar-dwellers got together so they could actually play some competitive games. 

[Bombers798891]

You're right, other than Norwich, I don't know the circumstances behind which the other schools joined the ECFC. I don't know if they tried to find a home in other conferences and got turned down, or if the institutional profiles of all the schools happen to fit just right with each other. There's probably more of that than I gave it credit for.

I suppose my ultimate problem with the ECFC was 95% really just the *concept* of the ECFC as it related to the larger realities of D-III football. The idea that, in an era where Pool C bids were slowly going away, that a bunch of mediocre/bad football programs formed a conference and yet another Pool C bid disappeared.

Ultimately, I do think a lack of parity is a huge problem in Division III football, and conferences like the ECFC, regardless of whether they are formed under the guise of "stealing a bid" (a regrettable phrase I should not have used) or a larger institutional purpose, clearly make that problem worse by ensuring that the overall playoff field is watered down. While I have tended to try and keep my thoughts about D-III football moves more institutionally focused, every so often, I do just care about the football side of it for the sake of the on-the-field product.

So, let me just say, from an institution-based standpoint of schools finding the best fit for them based on any number of factors, I have seen my hypocrisy on my ECFC stance.

But from a pure football fan standpoint, I still just roll my eyes as that conference winner gets obliterated in the playoffs. Which is why my stance on them from a pure football perspective, would be different than my stance on say, Ithaca leaving the E8, since Ithaca joining the LL doesn't make the worst aspect of D-III football even worse.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I mean, it's an understandable frustration.  I just never really saw it the way you did that this was a league formed solely for those teams to sneak into the playoffs.

You can certainly point out that if they're just trying to find a place they can play competitive games without worrying about having nationally competitive programs, they could just be like the NESCAC and play each other and get competitive games without swiping a playoff bid.  But, that brings us back around to ccd's post, which is that these teams didn't necessarily want to be an intramural group, but were forced together due to lack of other options, and ultimately some of them are hoping to become competitive with the rest of the East programs, at least.

And also, for a guy from Eastern PA, I have a terrible lack of knowledge of New England's geography, but I drove from Pittsburgh to Connecticut a few weeks ago and man that was a longggg drive.  I can only imagine that for teams up in Maine and New Hampshire and Vermont what it'd be like trying to play games against teams in New York, New Jersey, PA on a regular basis.  On a lark, I just checked how far it is from Husson to Rochester (a random mid-pack LL team)...622 miles.  That's going to be pretty similar for them to take a trip to almost any other Liberty League or Empire 8 school.  Some of those teams really don't have any other choice without a lot of very long bus rides and overnight trips.

[jknezek]

And also, for a guy from Eastern PA, I have a terrible lack of knowledge of New England's geography, but I drove from Pittsburgh to Connecticut a few weeks ago and man that was a longggg drive.  I can only imagine that for teams up in Maine and New Hampshire and Vermont what it'd be like trying to play games against teams in New York, New Jersey, PA on a regular basis.  On a lark, I just checked how far it is from Husson to Rochester (a random mid-pack LL team)...622 miles.  That's going to be pretty similar for them to take a trip to almost any other Liberty League or Empire 8 school.  Some of those teams really don't have any other choice without a lot of very long bus rides and overnight trips.

Yep. Lots of people forget how far North and East this country goes from Boston. Having grown up in NJ and taken a bunch of camping trips up that way they were long, long drives. Felt every bit as long as some of those rides down to South Carolina or TN. Of course, now that I live in Alabama it's hard to believe how far West we are for being one state away from the Atlantic. Birmingham is on a North/South line almost directly beneath Chicago. It actually was closer for me to get to Thomas More than up to W&L because of how far West Birmingham is, not that I went which turned out to be a blessing in diguise. It's a big freaking country and it's easy to forget that. Especially for people who live on the I95 Boston to D.C. corridor and fly everywhere else.

[ccd494]

I understand the feeling of better teams watching the ECFC teams get mauled in the postseason.  It has to be frustrating.  I just take issue with fans blaming the ECFC and its teams for what isn't really their fault. 

I, as a Husson fan, wouldn't complain if the NCAA created some sort of play-in procedure where maybe the ECFC and NEFC combine for one bid, or have a play-in game of some sort.  I have no idea how the mechanics would work, but it wouldn't be outrageous.

Regardless, without the ECFC I don't think Husson football would survive.  Already they struggle enough to get non-conference games that they played one short on the schedule this season.  MMA's continued outright refusal to entertain the notion of playing Husson, and Colby-Bates-Bowdoin's insular NESCAC schedule, means that Husson is automatically travelling (or being traveled to) over four hours just to get a game.  Hopefully the University of New England will be willing to play Husson, but other than that there is no help coming on the horizon.