CCIW

[Mr.Right]

Not a threat...I asked...you can say no...I'm done with this

[Gregory Sager]

Ill just delete this post. Its just not worth it but if Sager believes the D3 mission is to have 45 year old Frosh kicking field goals then so be it.

That's a distortion of what I said. I said that the D3 mission is to have participation open to 45-year-old frosh who want to kick field goals for their school.

It might be within the rules but the school and the program are going almost one foot over the line doing this. Schools like this belong in D2

We are going to have to agree to disagree about this. As I said, the no-age-requirement rule has been in effect in D3 since the division was created over forty years ago. Nobody has any part of their anatomy crossing the line over this. And this is exactly what D3 is about -- not D2, D3.

[PaulNewman]

Sager, you made it sound as though the rules were devised specifically to allow for what you are talking about.  Do you truly believe that's what the Presidents had in mind when they met or will meet again???

And your logic is seriously flawed, and often so.  Seeking competitive advantage (better, faster, etc) is NOT the same as a major age difference.  I won't ever have a problem with on eor two ad if that's the case with NPU, fine, but your argument is specifically argued to allow for a team of all 25 year olds. 

[PaulNewman]

I never cease to be amazed from a psychological point of view how sanctimonious and myopic some of us (all of us?) can get about "our" schools.  This NPU is just absurdly over the top, as is the idea continual rant about Messiah "yet again" getting manhandled in abusive ways, as though Messiah (as even their announcers admit happens) never committed an overly physical or even dangerous foul.  Let's just gift the title and cancel the season.

[Falconer]

I never cease to be amazed from a psychological point of view how sanctimonious and myopic some of us (all of us?) can get about "our" schools.  This NPU is just absurdly over the top, as is the idea continual rant about Messiah "yet again" getting manhandled in abusive ways, as though Messiah (as even their announcers admit happens) never committed an overly physical or even dangerous foul.  Let's just gift the title and cancel the season.

My rant, Paul, has always and only been about cards not given, not physical play per se. And, I will continue to note it when I see it. When officials fail to enforce rules, it usually de facto favors one team over another--not in an appropriate way, based on talent or plays made or strategy employed, but in a totally inappropriate way. If officials suddenly decided that there aren't going to be any offside calls today, you can see how that would favor one team inappropriately over another.

Cards not given do not merely give an inappropriate advantage to one team; they also tend to result in more injuries--and probably the majority of those to the players who are smaller, regardless of whom they happen to play for.

Paul, when I ranted last fall about certain leagues and certain teams being encouraged by their coaches to play too aggressively, if you check I think you will see that the evidence was taken usually from games Messiah wasn't part of, or leagues to which Messiah doesn't belong. And, if I recall correctly, many people other than me were disgusted by certain players from Montclair being ejected in crucial late season games, or a certain player from Lycoming earning a red for physically attacking an opponent as his team exited the tournament. Messiah wasn't involved in either of those games. But, most of the games I see in person involve the Falcons, so when I notice incompetent officiating and comment on it (in the context of not issuing cards for cardable offenses, resulting only in further instances of such offenses b/c the players know they won't be carded), Messiah is pretty likely to have been in that game. And, I will call it. Every time I see it. Regardless of who's playing--but it will usually be Messiah for reasons just explained.

Give me all the -K you wish (and I think that's the source of all or most of mine), or just ignore what I say. It won't change the nature of my commentary. For much more than a century, head hunting was considered "part of the game" in baseball. That sorry state of affairs finally changed, but only after many men lost careers and one man lost his life. Losing control of a soccer game isn't on quite that level, but if incompetent officiating results in young men losing the opportunity to play most or all of a season, including a senior season, not to mention lots of $ spent on medical care and time lost on recovery, then it needs to be called out. Soccer is dangerous enough to knees and heads already. The rules exist to try to keep a lid on the violence, and to do that they must be enforced. (Actually, Paul, I sense you might actually agree with this. If so, I invite you to start calling out bad officiating too--whether or not Kenyon was involved in that game.)

Do Messiah players also get cards? Certainly. Of course they do--anyone can miss a tackle or dispute a call too strongly or even lose his temper and just take an opposing player down. They're a matter of public record. Go see for yourself: https://gomessiah.com/sports/2012/1/9/MSOC_0109123659.aspx?path=msoc. There's a distinct lack of reds in that record, however, perhaps even a total absence as far back as the online record book goes. (And, if it went back a lot further, you'd find a full season without a single card of any color. You really would.) Call me "sanctimonious" if you like, but I'm showing you facts that are easy to check. (And, they are hardly alone in this. Many other programs respect the game and their opponents just as well as the Falcons do. My problem is with those that don't, and the officials who enable them.)

As for gifting the title, I'd love to know how that works. I doubt a single Falcon player last fall felt that anyone owed him anything, but I'm open to persuasion. I know that the seniors were strongly motivated by having never won a title, but so far I haven't turned up any evidence that it arrived gift wrapped in the mail. All indications are that they had to come from behind multiple times, or score with just a few seconds left, to grab that prize. Maybe I haven't yet looked in the right place, and you could help with that.

[PaulNewman]

Falconer, I've never given you any negative K....you may have noticed I have quite a bit myself (no doubt some well earned).

I also was probably the primary critic of Montclair in terms of your reference there.  I thought the behavior of a couple of players and maybe one in particular was outlandish (and very detrimental to his own team).  I was probably the most vociferous calling out the kid from Tufts who viciously elbowed a Bowdoin player.  I've commented in both directions on Amherst.

My recollection when you lamented "yet again" you were forced to comment on behavior against Messiah is that you have focused on abuse against Messiah.  That's how I recall your focus on Lycoming last year.  The between the lines message for me is that Messiah plays the beautiful game and plays the right way (I generally agree actually) and that some of these other teams (NJAC, Lycoming, SUNYAC, Amherst, etc) are the thugs who are a clear and present danger to the Messiah dynasty because of alleged intent to injure.  I certainly don't want to see any player injured or miss a season.  And I will call that out when I see that kind of intent.  Another prominent poster challenged you on the most recent example.  I didn't study it so I don't know.  I was just picking up on the first thing you focused on (a lot) after the first game of the year is how I remember you focusing towards the end of last year. 

My guess is that Messiah generally gives as good as they get.  Those 2013 and 2014 teams were among the biggest teams I've seen in D3....like the varsity version of OWU is how I saw them....much bigger and more physical with the similar beautiful style.  Now, do teams try to be physical against Messiah because Messiah has so many advantages all over the pitch, often at every single position on the field?  Of course....but that's not unique to Messiah....that's what teams do when they play teams far superior.  Again, I'm not condoning violence or intent to injure or even just careless dangerous play, But Messiah is not unique in hoping to avoid serious and unnecessary injuries.

[PaulNewman]

And Falconer, I'll be honest about how I interpreted your post on an immediate gut level.  My takeaway is that you were ticked off that Cortland held Messiah to a draw especially on the home field in the first game of the year.  My comment about gifting the title was more about sensing overanxious about the draw hurting Messiah in some way or ruining a perfect season or something like that when we all know Messiah will be just fine.  There seemed to be a lot of angst in the post about Messiah's season possibly being seriously impacted by injuries from that game.  The reason I often include myself is because I know I watch and recall games in similar ways.  We all naturally recall the plays and calls impacting our team while not necessarily remembering weird events and shots off posts and bad calls that hurt the opponent.

[Falconer]

And Falconer, I'll be honest about how I interpreted your post on an immediate gut level.  My takeaway is that you were ticked off that Cortland held Messiah to a draw especially on the home field in the first game of the year.  My comment about gifting the title was more about sensing overanxious about the draw hurting Messiah in some way or ruining a perfect season or something like that when we all know Messiah will be just fine.  There seemed to be a lot of angst in the post about Messiah's season possibly being seriously impacted by injuries from that game.  The reason I often include myself is because I know I watch and recall games in similar ways.  We all naturally recall the plays and calls impacting our team while not necessarily remembering weird events and shots off posts and bad calls that hurt the opponent.

Paul, I appreciate the generous spirit with which you received my pointed reply. +K for you. (I should have made it clearer that I don't actually think you've given me -K in the past; I was just saying in a less-than-ideal way that I'll keep noticing bad officiating and if you or anyone else wants to respond with -K, I won't care. I will try to keep it down a bit, since I notice it a lot, but the egregious games with clueless officials will still draw fire.)  I understand why you concluded I was mad about an opening draw at home, and I'm glad you now see that my ire had nothing to do with the score. I've watched a lot of opening games, and when the Falcons lose or draw (or win half-heartedly) I either credit the opponent, criticize the Falcons, or both. I did both in my account of the Cortland game, especially crediting them for two lovely goals. I was overall pretty happy with how the Falcons played, and angry only at the officiating for reasons already known. Give me the same score without the muggings and I'm totally fine with that game.

Everyone here knows I'm a homer--I chose my screen name so as not to pretend otherwise. I can hardly complain if folks think I'm just bellyaching about physical teams, b/c they might impede the Falcons' progress toward yet another title. Some will think that, regardless of what I might say now or down the road. Let folks think what they might, my precise complaint is about officials who don't get control of excessive violence from the first instance. That's my beef, and I doubt I'm alone to think it's rampant in D3. Yes, some teams are more guilty of taking advantage of this situation than others--and yes, I do implicitly point fingers at coaches who encourage that, but the officials are the main object of my ire. It's usually in the context of a team playing in Grantham, b/c nearly all of the live soccer I see happens there. In a rare instance, neither team is Messiah: I recall watching a national final here eons ago (Stockton beat Redlands), in which I think both teams were very physical, but I think several cards were called so I would have been happy about the officials. I can't find a box score and I don't trust my memory, but if anyone finds the box I'd love to sharpen that fading memory.

I'm all about keeping the lid on it, and I appreciate officials who take that approach--regardless of who's playing. If it looks cardable, give the card--and you probably won't have to give a lot more, and you've lessened the likelihood that a man gets hurt, including a man who's innocent of wrongdoing on the play. (In the Cortland game last weekend, the same 2 or 3 guys kept knocking the same people down. If you card that the first time, it probably stops.)

I'll close this by referencing a common refrain I've heard for nearly twenty years in various places, including while sitting in the stands watching games--that people like me get riled about this, b/c the Falcons are just "soft" and we're afraid that our boys might be intimidated into losing to a big team that couldn't beat us playing our style. I bet there's a lot of people out there who've played the Falcons, who know that they don't get intimidated (though they do get defeated), and who realize that the Falcons (and their fans) expect opponents to play to win, using their own favored styles of soccer. Most teams do it by packing it in, doing their best to prevent an early Falcon goal while hoping to get one themselves off a quick counter or a Falcon defensive mistake--or even a great shot (Cortland had one and maybe two of those last week, but they weren't packing it in). Some teams play the Falcons straight up, sometimes getting the result they want but not often. And, some teams just try to knock the Falcons silly in an effort to throw them off their game or intimidate them. That's the type of strategy that can be legal--physical contact isn't necessarily outside the rules--but often leads to cheap shots, especially when officials just "let them play." When properly monitored, I have no problem with it. Use your size to advantage: that's not different intrinsically from using speed or skill to your advantage. Indeed, as you noted, Paul, some Falcon teams have had the size to play that way themselves. But, it's a lot tougher to get away with breaking rules in the other strategies. Offsides, ordinary fouls, and obvious PKs are often called, and when they aren't men aren't usually hurt. Muggings take place when the third strategy is used and officials can't find their cards. My beef goes no further than that.

My best wishes to you, Paul. 

[PaulNewman]

+K falconer.....there's nothing wrong with me that a national title (or four) wouldn't cure...

[1970s NESCAC Player]

+K falconer.....there's nothing wrong with me that a national title (or four) wouldn't cure...

Davidson or Kenyon?

[PaulNewman]

LOL. Don't care too much about my alma mater...and I will cheer mightily against the Warriors and Steph Curry if the Celtics and my favorite coach on the planet, Brad Stevens, get a crack at them.  Would love to see Kenyon get one and would be thrilled for the school and the alums of the program.

I have been a UK bball fan for life since listening to Cawood Ledford in the car with my Dad since age 6 (58 now).  And I could not care less if Calipari cheats if the Wildcats hang another banner....at least not hypocritical like Coach K and Duke which is 35 miles from where I grew up.  Was with my Dad in Philly in the Duke section when friggin Laettner hit that shot. But we got them back in '98.

[Pat Coleman]

Sager, you made it sound as though the rules were devised specifically to allow for what you are talking about.  Do you truly believe that's what the Presidents had in mind when they met or will meet again???

I know I'm weighing in on a topic that's been quiet for 24 hours, but there have been many older student-athletes playing at many schools across many sports. If the presidents of Division III schools thought there was an issue, they have had literally dozens of opportunities to make a change.

Fact of the matter is, the Division III philosophy specifically references focusing on participation opportunities, and on treating student-athletes the same as the rest of the student body. A 45-year-old wouldn't be prohibited from running for student government or participating in a student dramatic production, so this is in line with that.

I get that "Mr. Right" has a strongly held opinion on this, but it's not the prevailing opinion among the 450-plus Division III institutions, the ones that make the rules.

I said that the D3 mission is to have participation open to 45-year-old frosh who want to kick field goals for their school.

Indeed.

[PaulNewman]

I don't need to read all the minutes of D3 Presidents meetings to know that "access for all" was not intended to foreshadow any scenario where a significant portion of NCAA athletic teams would be substantially outside the norm.  Yes, the 68 year old man who completes high school and is a top squash player will be welcomed with open arms, as will the 35 year old war veteran who wants to fulfill his dream of college football.  None of that suggests some far-reaching endorsement or SYSTEMIC trend beyond usual norms, and I am absolutely certain that D3 Presidents NEVER intended to support anything that would smack of exploitation of D3 in some semi-professional way.  I wonder what the response would be if a school, by mission, filled their athletic teams with a majority of 25-27 year olds.

[PaulNewman]

...and on treating student-athletes the same as the rest of the student body

Exactly...in terms of specific individuals, not as a systemic strategy counter to an institution's norms.  Imagine if Williams filled a D3 college hockey roster with 25 year old semi-pro Canadians, way out of line with the overall student body.  Embracing any student, including an outlier student, to play the lead in a college drama event is so not even close the counter-argument here.

As for NPU, as I already said, if the overall student body is full of older age internationals, then fine, but if there is a concerted strategy to have 25 year old internationals I am really going to be at a loss if some of you think that is competitive advantage in the same vein as seeking recruits with speed, skill, or some other athletic attribute that all coaches would seek.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I wonder what the response would be if a school, by mission, filled their athletic teams with a majority of 25-27 year olds.

Go ahead and encourage someone to make it happen. I promise you, it won't happen for reasons Sager has pointed out already. Where you going to find all of these individuals who are willing to be in college at that age in life?

DIII presidents meet ... a lot. They meet as a council several times a year, they meet in their conference and regional meetings throughout the year, and they meet at the NCAA Convention and any other presidential convention. Add that all up on a yearly basis and multiplied over the history of Division III ... there has been plenty of times to discuss any "issues" with age. And yet, there has not been a single mention or proposal floated to put any kind of age restriction in place - at least in my 20 some odd years of covering DIII.

It does amaze me when people get their boxers in a twist because some older player is not only playing, but contributing. Instead of celebrating it and recognizing how it adds to what makes DIII so great ... people rather knock it down and find fault with it.

And the argument that it's unfair for those who are 18 or 19 to play against these individuals ... yeah, because suddenly that's an issue. Everyone is aware there is a significant difference between a senior and a freshman in most cases, right? What if these players chose to play professionally (in any capacity) ... as a 19 year old, should they not play in leagues with 25 or 30 year olds?

And how does ONE individual some how ruin the entire thing and make it "dangerous" for everyone else? The percentage of these individuals in DIII is staggeringly ... STAGGERINGLY ... low. But a rule should be created to stop a tiny number of insanely dedicated and resilient individuals. I only wish I could have still been playing collegiately at 25. I knew I was tapped out at 22... because those freshman were getting better and faster than me.