CCIW

[PaulNewman]

Bizarre.  I specifically said older individuals (as individuals) is great.  Maybe we are just missing each other.  One side is saying participation for all and "access for all" while the other is saying D3 was never intended to be professionalized.  That's all.

If we got really serious about this, we'd question recruitment.  We'd say all who come to a school can try out for teams and they'd be more like intramurals, and yes, no one would care about age. 

[Pat Coleman]

I don't need to read all the minutes of D3 Presidents meetings to know that "access for all" was not intended to foreshadow any scenario where a significant portion of NCAA athletic teams would be substantially outside the norm.  Yes, the 68 year old man who completes high school and is a top squash player will be welcomed with open arms, as will the 35 year old war veteran who wants to fulfill his dream of college football.  None of that suggests some far-reaching endorsement or SYSTEMIC trend beyond usual norms, and I am absolutely certain that D3 Presidents NEVER intended to support anything that would smack of exploitation of D3 in some semi-professional way.  I wonder what the response would be if a school, by mission, filled their athletic teams with a majority of 25-27 year olds.

Athletic teams are expected to be reflective of the student body. If a student body is filled with a majority of 25-27-year-olds, come on back and let me know, but otherwise, let's stick to realistic hypotheticals.

[PaulNewman]

The hypotheticals were intended to show a flaw in an argument if taken to their logical conclusions.

In my view, this discussion is really about TWO D3 principles....access for all and anyone versus professionalization.

And what Presidents "allow" isn't the same necessarily as the spirit of D3.  If we take the mission and spirit of D3 really seriously we might question dynasties of any type in D3, and included in that the methods used to develop and maintain those efforts.

I also think some might object to the idea of recruiting a 27 year old for essentially the sole purpose of boosting the soccer team with no real concern about that student getting an education.  It's permissable but it is consistent with the spirit intended?

And I think there can be legit discussion about whether D3s should give admissions pushes and/or heavily recruiting kids for the main purpose of playing soccer (or any sport) for schools.

Anyway, the intent wasn't to present unlikely hypotheticals but to question whether sustained efforts and trends regarding building teams at least significantly in part in such ways is truly in the spirit of D3 as opposed to "legal."

And if you're going to pull out the sportsmanship posting quote please do so when posters are over the top with gratuitous and indignant arrogance as well.

[Pat Coleman]

And if you're going to pull out the sportsmanship posting quote please do so when posters are over the top with gratuitous and indignant arrogance as well.

If you're referring to the quote at the bottom of my posts, it's been on every post of mine for more than a decade. I don't really just "pull it out" for specific posts.

[Gotberg]

So...anyways...should be a fun game to watch tomorrow between NPU and UChicago!

[Falconer]

The discussion about the ages of athletes is interesting, and I (for one) would like to hear more opinions. I agree that D3 presidents are the key group, if any rules would be changed, and I also agree that such a change seems quite unlikely. Speaking for myself, I'm certainly struck by the number of older (than most undergraduate  students) European players on NPU's roster, and I admit being somewhat bothered by both parts of that situation (the ages and the nations of origin). "Bothered" doesn't for me translate into saying it's unfair (i.e., outside the agreed rules or the perceived spirit of those rules) and should be banned. The NCAA in all divisions has for a very long time had certain teams that recruited older and/or foreign athletes in many sports. American football would not be a common situation for that--save for a handful of Canadians, who can't get athletics scholarships in their own universities, b/c they are illegal in Canada (as I believe they should also be in the USA, but that's a totally different topic that I don't propose to open here and now). Track/XC and ice hockey would be common places to find this. A few years ago, in fact, Florida State had two of the famous Borlée brothers from Belgium on the track team. One of them won the NCAA title at 400 meters, the other finished fourth, and they combined with two other men to win the 4x400 relay. As I say, in D1 track/XC this type of thing is standard business. (Age differences don't feature in this particular example, however.) When I competed in that sport many years ago, it seemed that Villanova always had the best Irish runners they could find, including world-class runners like Eamonn Coghlin or Marcus O'Sullivan or Donal Walsh (who finished in second, just 8 seconds behind the immortal Steve Prefontaine, in the 1970 XC championship), not to mention South African Sydnee Maree--who won 7 NCAA titles when he was in his mid-20s. The example of Maree is not really fair in the common sense of the word, insofar as distance runners usually do improve with age up to a point, but it's absolutely not against any rules to recruit older guys, and one could point out that at that time a black South African wasn't allowed to compete against whites in his own country--which is obviously far more unfair that any situation mentioned in this thread. Lots of D1 schools then and now are loaded with African runners, and some of them are probably older than most of the men they compete against in college. I don't support banning them from competing in the NCAA, as long as they are complying with all of the other rules imposed on so-called "student athletes."

So, that's my three cents.

[Gotberg]

The d3 age discussion is an interesting topic, but is there a way we can move it away from the CCIW board to another forum?

[PaulNewman]

And if you're going to pull out the sportsmanship posting quote please do so when posters are over the top with gratuitous and indignant arrogance as well.

If you're referring to the quote at the bottom of my posts, it's been on every post of mine for more than a decade. I don't really just "pull it out" for specific posts.

Understood.  My bad.  I realized that after the fact.

And I won't post here on this thread on the D3 participation topic and apologize for participating in taking the thread on an off-ramp.

[Gregory Sager]

I don't need to read all the minutes of D3 Presidents meetings to know that "access for all" was not intended to foreshadow any scenario where a significant portion of NCAA athletic teams would be substantially outside the norm.  Yes, the 68 year old man who completes high school and is a top squash player will be welcomed with open arms, as will the 35 year old war veteran who wants to fulfill his dream of college football.  None of that suggests some far-reaching endorsement or SYSTEMIC trend beyond usual norms, and I am absolutely certain that D3 Presidents NEVER intended to support anything that would smack of exploitation of D3 in some semi-professional way.  I wonder what the response would be if a school, by mission, filled their athletic teams with a majority of 25-27 year olds.

Athletic teams are expected to be reflective of the student body. If a student body is filled with a majority of 25-27-year-olds, come on back and let me know, but otherwise, let's stick to realistic hypotheticals.

Exactly. PaulNewman's rant strikes me as being really bizarre. Nobody is going to recruit a team of 25-year-olds in any D3 sport, for the reason I mentioned earlier -- it's simply impossible in our culture for there to be a pool of 25-year-olds willing to be full-time students without full-time jobs that's large enough to warrant recruiting them. Even when you factor in international students -- and, even counting the men's soccer team, the number of international student-athletes at NPU is pretty limited -- the pool of 25-year-olds willing to be college athletes is miniscule. Dave got it exactly right:

And how does ONE individual some how ruin the entire thing and make it "dangerous" for everyone else? The percentage of these individuals in DIII is staggeringly ... STAGGERINGLY ... low. But a rule should be created to stop a tiny number of insanely dedicated and resilient individuals. I only wish I could have still been playing collegiately at 25. I knew I was tapped out at 22... because those freshman were getting better and faster than me.

This is all a case of making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Gregory Sager]

So...anyways...should be a fun game to watch tomorrow between NPU and UChicago!

I'm greatly looking forward to calling the match, although I have some trepidation as to NPU's prospects. The Vikings are starting a lot of new faces (and bringing in a lot more off of the bench), while the Maroons returned almost completely intact from last season (and one can argue that their most conspicuous turnover to graduation, Katsimpalis for the graduated Bonin at goalkeeper, is mitigated by the fact that Mike Babst swapped out Bonin in favor of Katsimpalis not once but twice in the late rounds of the '17 tourney when it was penalty-kicks time). As much promise as this NPU freshman class holds, the losses by the Vikings (especially Warp to graduation and Ericsson to transfer) are significant. I really wish that this match was being played a month from now. But, as it is, I think that the Maroons are a significant favorite this evening.

[Gotberg]

Greg, did you say on the Wednesday broadcast that a couple of regulars will miss tonight's game for NPU?

[Gotberg]

wow, that penalty kick for the second UC goal was crazy - the UC player was a salmon swimming up stream he was fake kicking so hard.

[blooter442]

As Mr. Sager pointed out on the broadcast, it was a pretty close game until the last 10 minutes or so. Lopez finishes a chance for 3-1 before Koh pounces on a "freshman mistake" (cross field pass in a dangerous area) for 4-1. Chicago now well in control.

[blooter442]

Cresto pulls one back on a PK with two minutes to play, his second of the game, but at this point it's too little too late. Would have been interesting if he scored that 10 minutes ago. 4-2 Chicago.

[Gotberg]

As an NPU fan, I actually feel pretty good even with the loss.  Only 3rd game of the year with a lot of first year players.  Several correctable mistakes and I think they'll learn from this and benefit through the rest of the season.