Pool C -- 2009

[HScoach]

K-Mack:  As always, you say what we're thinking much better than we can.  Numbers are nice, but it isn't, nor should it be, the end all.

As always, I fail to be that concise

Sometimes being an engineer helps my writing . 

Doesn't happen that often though.

[K-Mack]

Also, from the handbook in the section regarding championship selection:

"Additionally, input is provided by regional advisory committees for consideration by
the Division III football committee."

And that, as far as I can tell, is your published criteria that allows for some human element to play a factor.  

If it was simply about SOS's and in region win percentages, head to heads, and wins against other ranked teams, we wouldn't need a committee.  We have spreadsheets and databases that can track, tabulate, and sort that info for us.

You know, I've read that passage in the handbook, and never got that interpetation. I always read it as "stuff discussed during the weekly conference calls to come up with the rankings might come into play again."

Do you mean it as "since every conference is represented on the subcommittees, everyone's at least seen everyone in discussion at least once and can weigh in?"

That's a really good point.

Would also bring up whether a committee/subcomittee rep would have trouble being objective, either in the promote-my-conference or hate-my-rival direction.

And the committee thing, that's what I was saying earlier.

[K-Mack]

As for why they should ... because the numbers aren't perfect either. 9-1s might look the same to the OWP/OOWP formula, but getting drilled by Monmouth and winning the rest of your MWC games is generally not considered to be as good a measure of who's a good football team as losing by 3 on the road to Miss Coll and winning the rest of your ASC games is.

In the theme of this thread, and in opposition to the D-3 projection on the front page:
Is a Norbert 9-1, getting drilled by Monmouth and winning the rest of your MWC games better than an ONU 8-2, losing to MUC, then to Ott?
Is a W&J 9-1, losing by a touchdown to TMC and winning the rest of your PAC games better than on ONU, 8-2, losing to MUC, then to Ott?

Is either of those 9-1s better than NCC 8-2, losing to Illinois Wesleyan by a touchdown, AND to ONU?

Bob,
That's my point exactly. One or more of these teams is in by a hair, and the teams that are out by a hair each have solid arguments.

If W&J is the last team in, St. N and ONU will have legitimate gripes.
If St. N is the last team in, W&J and ONU will have legitimate gripes.
If UMHB and ONU are in/out and St. N/W&J are in/out, there will be gripes. That's the nature of the at-large bubble, right?

If it was cut and dried like the AQs are, what would we need a committee for?

The committee makes the tough calls when tough calls have to be made.

My question to you was, do you think a degree of subjectivity is warranted or no?

[K-Mack]

Okay,
getting close to 3, so I'm gonna step away. I always miss a few teams, so if I haven't backed your team, get excited

[Bob.Gregg]

I don't see the need for it this year.

I see the criteria have seven 1-loss teams vying for six Pool C slots.  At least five of those seven have comparable SOS, OWP, OOWP with each other and with the discussed 2-loss teams.

Any subjectivity comes in only for what I see as the final spot--which 1-loss team gets in and which gets left out?

Does Norbert's blowout loss overshadow a better SOS as compared to W&J?
Does W&J's close loss (TMC) plus last year's playoff run make up for playing Oberlin?

[Bob.Gregg]

W&J in, at MUC...

HScoach, see you next weekend.

[usee]

Bob,

See. just like I told you. Why would you think ONU had a chance?

[Bob.Gregg]

Actually, coach, I won't be there.  But we'll have a crew there.

I'll be at the D-2 second round--Cal U Pa at Shippensburg....

Gonna miss my first visit to the Mount.

[K-Mack]

I don't see the need for it this year.

I see the criteria have seven 1-loss teams vying for six Pool C slots.  At least five of those seven have comparable SOS, OWP, OOWP with each other and with the discussed 2-loss teams.

Any subjectivity comes in only for what I see as the final spot--which 1-loss team gets in and which gets left out?

Does Norbert's blowout loss overshadow a better SOS as compared to W&J?
Does W&J's close loss (TMC) plus last year's playoff run make up for playing Oberlin?

Valid analysis. Committee appeared to agree with you.

Personally, I think W&J getting in would be something close to a travesty, in that it basically endorses playing pansies as a backup plan for not winning your AQ. But since my suggestion would be to schedule Mount Union anyway, it's sort of poetic justice.

And if they win ... holy schnikes!

(To be clear, I don't think 9-1 teams getting in is generally a travesty. So that's not really the right word. But I think it would be bad for Division III if we interpreted W&J getting in as an endorsement for good teams not taking opponents that challenge them)

[Bob.Gregg]

Presidents will play Delaware Valley next year, regarding the SOS issue.
As I indicated earlier, I didn't think the criteria had the Presidents in.
I think Norbert has better primary crits at least.  But, instead of being a travesty (a little strong), I think it gives a little glimpse into the weight of various criteria.

Regional results appears more meaningful than SOS.
And, then, if you get beyond the primaries, even something like "How bad you lost the one you lost" seems to be an item.
Finally, this is W&J's 21st bid in 25 years.  How does that play in the "other factors"...

Not surprised (as I indicated earlier this weekend) that no 2-loss Pool C bids were offered.  Regional results (wins & losses) is a pretty tough criteria to overlook or marginalize.


On a much lighter note, K-Mack, I like grape jelly with my toast....

[HScoach]

Actually, coach, I won't be there.  But we'll have a crew there.

I'll be at the D-2 second round--Cal U Pa at Shippensburg....

Gonna miss my first visit to the Mount.

Darn.

[Frank Rossi]

We just finished our "In the HuddLLe" interview with Dr. Joy Solomen, Chairwoman of the NCAA Division III Football Championship Committee.  I have to admit, I learned some things during the call -- and I'm sure readers will want to hear what she said about strength of schedule issues, the East as a whole and the way to avoid Mount Union at the top of the East Bracket every year.

Tune in at http://inthehuddlle.com at 7:30pm EST for the interview and a lot more.

[usee]

We just finished our "In the HuddLLe" interview with Dr. Joy Solomen, Chairwoman of the NCAA Division III Football Championship Committee.  I have to admit, I learned some things during the call -- and I'm sure readers will want to hear what she said about strength of schedule issues, the East as a whole and the way to avoid Mount Union at the top of the East Bracket every year.

Tune in at http://inthehuddlle.com at 7:30pm EST for the interview and a lot more.

Frank,
Anyway to hear it after the fact?

[algernon]

My suggested bracket, with Hampden-Sydney moving upto #1 ahead of Wesley, since the Tigers (9-0) beat a common opponent (Salisbury) by 45 points that Wesley (9-0) beat by only 18 points:

1 Hampden-Sydney vs. 8 Johns Hopkins
4 Huntingdon vs. 5 Mississippi College
3 Thomas More  vs. 6 DePauw
2 Wesley vs 7 North Carolina Wesleyan

UMHB flies somewhere else.

Well, I got the South Bracket correct .... except for the seeding, which is:
3 Hampden-Sydney vs. 6 Johns Hopkins
4 Huntingdon vs. 5 Mississippi College
2 Thomas More  vs. 7 DePauw
1 Wesley vs 8 North Carolina Wesleyan

[Mr. Ypsi]

We just finished our "In the HuddLLe" interview with Dr. Joy Solomen, Chairwoman of the NCAA Division III Football Championship Committee.  I have to admit, I learned some things during the call -- and I'm sure readers will want to hear what she said about strength of schedule issues, the East as a whole and the way to avoid Mount Union at the top of the East Bracket every year.

Tune in at http://inthehuddlle.com at 7:30pm EST for the interview and a lot more.

Frank,
Anyway to hear it after the fact?

Check the NWC board - guy has it archived.