Pool C -- 2009

[HSC85]

K-Mack,

Great work on the bracket.  My question is based on your experience does the NCAA try to avoid regular season rematches in the first round if the can?

I really like the idea of teams playing different teams.  However, it seems too logical to be taken seriously.  The NCAA seems married to the idea of "regional brackets".  It has been only recently that they have taken the top 4 teams and made them all #1 seeds.

Thanks for your insight.

[MonroviaCat]

Nice work K-Mack--here is my question about your proposed bracket:  If Redlands beats CLU and wins a Pool C selection--does CLU really still end up seated higher than them and get the home game in round 1?  Or might the committee look at the head to head when placing them in brackets and swap--give Redlands the home game and send CLU up to Linfield?  I only ask because, as a Linfield fan and somebody who has watched the SCIAC this year--Redlands looks like the better team (compared to CLU) and should they win on Saturday will confirm this--  So, it would seem a little "unfair" to give the weaker team the home game and send the better team on the road (not to mention a bit unfair to Linfield to have to face a better first round team than their ranking might otherwise dictate).

In Texas we understand that "fair" has nothing to do with it.  The only reason I think CLU and Redlands wouldn't meet again is because it would be back to back weeks, but if they did, it could also mean only 1 flight UMHB to Linfield.  Which match up would be more fair?  Redlands -Linfield or UMHB - Linfield

I actually think Redlands to MHB and CLU to Linfield would be more fair--and we know about the unfairness of it all in the Northwest as well....

[Gray Fox]

My theory is that the "extra"  island teams that are low seeds be sent to a top seed.  That, in theory, eliminates further flights and fits the normal seeding concept.  It makes no difference which Region they are sent to.

[crudbdad]

Nice work K-Mack--here is my question about your proposed bracket:  If Redlands beats CLU and wins a Pool C selection--does CLU really still end up seated higher than them and get the home game in round 1?  Or might the committee look at the head to head when placing them in brackets and swap--give Redlands the home game and send CLU up to Linfield?  I only ask because, as a Linfield fan and somebody who has watched the SCIAC this year--Redlands looks like the better team (compared to CLU) and should they win on Saturday will confirm this--  So, it would seem a little "unfair" to give the weaker team the home game and send the better team on the road (not to mention a bit unfair to Linfield to have to face a better first round team than their ranking might otherwise dictate).

In Texas we understand that "fair" has nothing to do with it.  The only reason I think CLU and Redlands wouldn't meet again is because it would be back to back weeks, but if they did, it could also mean only 1 flight UMHB to Linfield.  Which match up would be more fair?  Redlands -Linfield or UMHB - Linfield

The only thing I remember from 9th grade science was we complained about the FAIRNESS of a test and the teacher replied that the FAIR is in OCTOBER!. When it comes to the AA and fairness it doesn't seem to be a priority since the 500 mile rule is in place. See UMHB #2 seed/HSU #3 seed meeting in 1st round in '07. If UMHB can get a Pool C I would like to see someone different.

[hickory_cornhusker]

Nice work K-Mack--here is my question about your proposed bracket:  If Redlands beats CLU and wins a Pool C selection--does CLU really still end up seated higher than them and get the home game in round 1?  Or might the committee look at the head to head when placing them in brackets and swap--give Redlands the home game and send CLU up to Linfield?  I only ask because, as a Linfield fan and somebody who has watched the SCIAC this year--Redlands looks like the better team (compared to CLU) and should they win on Saturday will confirm this--  So, it would seem a little "unfair" to give the weaker team the home game and send the better team on the road (not to mention a bit unfair to Linfield to have to face a better first round team than their ranking might otherwise dictate).

In Texas we understand that "fair" has nothing to do with it.  The only reason I think CLU and Redlands wouldn't meet again is because it would be back to back weeks, but if they did, it could also mean only 1 flight UMHB to Linfield.  Which match up would be more fair?  Redlands -Linfield or UMHB - Linfield

The only thing I remember from 9th grade science was we complained about the FAIRNESS of a test and the teacher replied that the FAIR is in OCTOBER!. When it comes to the AA and fairness it doesn't seem to be a priority since the 500 mile rule is in place. See UMHB #2 seed/HSU #3 seed meeting in 1st round in '07. If UMHB can get a Pool C I would like to see someone different.

The West will remember Oxy getting sent to Willamette last year for a #2 vs. #1 match-up in the first round so the nCAA would have one flight in the first round instead of two.

[MonroviaCat]

I didn't really mean for the discussion to be about fairness---but if they are going to send Redlands or CLU up North, I'm guessing it would be the lower of the 2 (unless they are sending one to St. Johns) in K-Mack's bracket....that was it.

[HScoach]

What's FAIR about D3 football is that 200+ teams enter the season having a true, legitimate path to a chance at a national championship determined on the actual playing field.  Just like all collegiate sports except D1 football.  The selections of the last Pool C bids, the seedings and the pairings might be open to debate and argument because the NCAA is cehap, but at least we all get the chance to settle it on the field.

If we had the BCS crap that D1 has, last season would have had Mount Union against a North Central team that didn't make it out of the 2nd round playing for the mythical championship.   

[K-Mack]

I didn't really mean for the discussion to be about fairness---but if they are going to send Redlands or CLU up North, I'm guessing it would be the lower of the 2 (unless they are sending one to St. Johns) in K-Mack's bracket....that was it.

You're right, for Redlands to get it, they'd need to beat CLU and then have Oxy win to give CLU the SCIAC tiebreaker. But Redlands would have the win over regionally-ranked CLU to make certain it would be the higher seed. In my quick assembling of that, I was putting A AQ winners over C entries, but that does not have to be the case.

I guarantee if R-MC gets in, for example, at 7-3 they'll be an 8 seed again, likely playing Wesley, while ODAC "runner-up" Hampden-Sydney would be a middle seed if it got in. Even though R-MC would have the 1 win of note vs. H-SC and a h2h advantage

[DPU3619]

Just curious, Keith: You've got DePauw as the 5 in the North and Wabash as the 8 in the North.  Is that with a DePauw win or a Wabash win?

[Ron Boerger]

Just curious, Keith: You've got DePauw as the 5 in the North and Wabash as the 8 in the North.  Is that with a DePauw win or a Wabash win?

Would have to be a DPU win.  7-2 DPU would not warrant a #5 seed (nor would 8-2 Wabash). 

[DPU3619]

Would have to be a DPU win.  7-2 DPU would not warrant a #5 seed (nor would 8-2 Wabash). 

That's kind of what I was assuming, but I figured if I was taking a 2 loss C out of the North, that probably wouldn't be the one.

But, I hate them more than anything in the entire world.  So my view is skewed.

[K-Mack]

Quick stupid question. After the first round is done do they use the traditional bracketology or do they refigure the mileage for the second round matchups?

Once the bracket is built, teams advance to play the winner of a pre-determined matchup the traditional way; there is no re-seeding or re-shuffling in the next round.

But to go a little further with your question, the selection committee tends to build the bracket without regard for what might happen in future rounds, flight-wise, but only what can be guaranteed in the first round.

Also, the seeds might be a little confusing in a D3 playoff since travel takes precedence; higher seeds still host, but you might see a 4-6 matchup instead of a 3-6 if geography necessitates that.

[K-Mack]

Would have to be a DPU win.  7-2 DPU would not warrant a #5 seed (nor would 8-2 Wabash). 

That's kind of what I was assuming, but I figured if I was taking a 2 loss C out of the North, that probably wouldn't be the one.

But, I hate them more than anything in the entire world.  So my view is skewed.

You guys caught me in my hastiness messing that up. I was generally giving better seeds to conference champions, but for Wabash to get in, I think they'd have to win the Monon Bell game. So since distance is not really a concern with those two, can I just flip them?

The loser of Monon Bell going to UWW is no great reward.

Truth is, I originally had Wabash in there twice and had taken out Union, so I had to go back at the very end and move some things around ... Would it be easier, Wes, if we just scratched Wabash from the whole thing entirely?

Anyway, you're right, they can't both win. And while I might not hate Hampden-Sydney more than anything, I can identify with what you're feeling.

I want to make totally clear that I was just making that bracket up off the top of my head and there are numerous variables that could sway things, one of them being paying attention to detail

[gobash83]

K-Mack:  I would love to see that bracket.  It creates much more interesting regions built around Mount and Whitewater tha I expect.  I might be in the minority, but I really like Mount getting paired with non-traditional North Region teams.  The new opponents create some excitement in the early rounds that we wouldn't normally have by playing the NCAC or Heartland teams. 

Only thing I don't like is Wabash getting in over Ohio Northern.  I realize that a 9-1 Wabash will be selected by the NCAA before an 8-2 ONU, but Northern would drill Wabash into the ground if they actually played. 

One last statement about potential Pool C's.   I really, REALLY hope Otterbein doesn't get picked if the OAC is fortunate enough to get a C bid.  They are a complete pretender.   I still don't know how they managed to steal victories against ONU and Capital, but Otterbein woud not be anywhere near as  competitive in the playoffs as Ohio Northern or 7-3 Capital.

Interesting observations.

In the podcast, Pat and I talked about how Otterbein is at a distinct SOS disadvantage compared to ONU, Wheaton and North Central. But they're at the top of this h2h/common opponents chain: OTT > ONU > NCC > Wheaton. Not sure what the committee would favor.

In the event of a Wabash loss, I think two-loss ONU has a chance to emerge from that group to be the first North Region team on the Pool C table, because of the huge SOS difference. But it's hard to get a committee to ignore an h2h result, which is usually the right way to decide.

Can anyone tell the kids woke me up before leaving for school this morning and I can't fall back asleep? Wasn't supposed to be up this early aimlessly analyzing potential playoff fields.

Given the quote above, I thought that Keith had assumed a Wabash win, though I do think that a 9-1 Wabash deserves a better seed than #8 and a 2 loss DPU wouldn't deserve a #5 seed (even with my obvious bias).

Personally, I do not think that a 2 loss Wabash deserves a Pool C bid.  And, while I don't think ONU would "drill  Wabash into the ground" if they played, I do think that Northern and perhaps other 2 loss teams in the region would have as good as, if not better, argument for a Pool C bid. 

[D O.C.]

How many of you guys are card counters? You do not have to admit it here, you can always IM me. Only a few of us would know then. If you only handicap the dogs, I am not that interested. BTW, where do you get your injury reports?   

Pardon me for being stupid, but WHAT THE HELL ...?

Keith is very good at this. However, I am not suggesting he try his hand at card counting. 

It is my opinion that as esteemed as most of you handicapping these bids are, this is only handicapping.
Horse handicappers look down on dog handicappers and that was an attempt at humor.
Injury reports are important to odds maker$ and all those who cannot just sit back and enjoy a game.
This Fantasy Football must be fun but I notice every year it is NOT perfect.
I must await the NCAA, not this conjecture, before purchasing airfare SOMEWHERE.