Pool C -- 2009

[gobash83]

So since distance is not really a concern with those two, can I just flip them?

***

Would it be easier, Wes, if we just scratched Wabash from the whole thing entirely?

While you didn't ask, flipping them is fine with me....

[K-Mack]

How many of you guys are card counters? You do not have to admit it here, you can always IM me. Only a few of us would know then. If you only handicap the dogs, I am not that interested. BTW, where do you get your injury reports?   

Pardon me for being stupid, but WHAT THE HELL ...?

Keith is very good at this. However, I am not suggesting he try his hand at card counting. 

It is my opinion that as esteemed as most of you handicapping these bids are, this is only handicapping.
Horse handicappers look down on dog handicappers and that was an attempt at humor.
Injury reports are important to odds maker$ and all those who cannot just sit back and enjoy a game.
This Fantasy Football must be fun but I notice every year it is NOT perfect.
I must await the NCAA, not this conjecture, before purchasing airfare SOMEWHERE.

Thanks for the explanation.

You should be fairly confident that there'll be a game in McMinnville. There might also be one in Southern Calif. if you choose to wait a week to see the 'Cats, and I'm responding to who I think I'm responding to.

[AUPepBand]

-- Use a map. You'll be surprised how close Alfred is to Ohio. They can get to Case and Wittenberg. Trine can get to Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky. If you sub Union for Susquehanna, there are a ton more places the LL champ can go, with it being in Central Pa. stead upstate NY.

When Pep was a tot before the AFL and NFL were talking to each other, the closest NFL team to Alfred was the old Cleveland Browns. Since Pep's pops couldn't stomach the Bills, but Cleveland had some outstanding talent, we watched a lot of Browns games on the old 19" B&W TV since the Buffalo station carried the Browns.

Alfred is closer to Cleveland than New York City. Pep wouldn't mind seeing the Saxons travel to Cleveland to play Case Western again....the band is still drying out from its last trip there in 2005, a 14-0 win for AU in a steady downpour.

Alfred to Crestview Hills, KY is 491 miles...Pep once attended an AU basketball game at a tournament at Centre College in Danville, KY, which is a bit farther.

On Saxon Warriors!

[altor]

I really like the idea of teams playing different teams.  However, it seems too logical to be taken seriously.  The NCAA seems married to the idea of "regional brackets".  It has been only recently that they have taken the top 4 teams and made them all #1 seeds.

One thing to consider is that Dick Kaiser, the chairman of the selection committee for the past couple years, finished his term last year.  When Dr. Kaiser started was when we started seeing brackets built around what they considered the top 4 teams.  I'm hoping the new chair will inject new philosophies and ideas to the group like Dr. Kaiser seemed to.  Perhaps they will think outside the box and bring us some inter-regional brackets like some are hoping.

And, if we have three West Coast and three Deep South teams, expect the SCIAC teams to play each other and UMHB to travel to the Northwest.  That makes only 1 flight for the first round, which is what the bean-counters are looking for.

[Ralph Turner]

I really like the idea of teams playing different teams.  However, it seems too logical to be taken seriously.  The NCAA seems married to the idea of "regional brackets".  It has been only recently that they have taken the top 4 teams and made them all #1 seeds.

One thing to consider is that Dick Kaiser, the chairman of the selection committee for the past couple years, finished his term last year.  When Dr. Kaiser started was when we started seeing brackets built around what they considered the top 4 teams.  I'm hoping the new chair will inject new philosophies and ideas to the group like Dr. Kaiser seemed to.  Perhaps they will think outside the box and bring us some inter-regional brackets like some are hoping.

And, if we have three West Coast and three Deep South teams, expect the SCIAC teams to play each other and UMHB to travel to the Northwest.  That makes only 1 flight for the first round, which is what the bean-counters are looking for.

UMHB at Linfield would be a rematch of the last Stagg Bowl that did not have UWW and MUC.

[TC]

1 St. John's
8 Conc Ill

3 Miss Coll
6 Hunt

4 Cal Lutheran
5 UMHB

7 Redlands
2 Linfield

From a St. John's perspective, that bracket would be... interesting.  St. John's fans have spent the past couple weeks discussing potential matchups with familiar foes like UW-Whitewater, Central, Coe, St. Norbert, and St. Thomas.  Instead, this bracket (which I believe is a looooooooong shot) would put the Johnnies in a bracket with only two teams they've ever faced before (Linfield and Redlands)--and a possibility that the Johnnies wouldn't even have to face one of those two teams to win the region.

And, as a fan, I think I like this bracket.  It would mean St. John's wouldn't have to potentially face one of the Purple Powers until the national semifinals.  It would bring a new team or two to Collegeville.  And can you imagine those southern teams heading north in late November?  I think it would be a lot more interesting football than Johnnie/Tommie II. 

So tell us, Keith.  How would you seed the #1's in your potential bracket?

[K-Mack]

1 St. John's
8 Conc Ill

3 Miss Coll
6 Hunt

4 Cal Lutheran
5 UMHB

7 Redlands
2 Linfield

From a St. John's perspective, that bracket would be... interesting.  St. John's fans have spent the past couple weeks discussing potential matchups with familiar foes like UW-Whitewater, Central, Coe, St. Norbert, and St. Thomas.  Instead, this bracket (which I believe is a looooooooong shot) would put the Johnnies in a bracket with only two teams they've ever faced before (Linfield and Redlands)--and a possibility that the Johnnies wouldn't even have to face one of those two teams to win the region.

And, as a fan, I think I like this bracket.  It would mean St. John's wouldn't have to potentially face one of the Purple Powers until the national semifinals.  It would bring a new team or two to Collegeville.  And can you imagine those southern teams heading north in late November?  I think it would be a lot more interesting football than Johnnie/Tommie II. 

So tell us, Keith.  How would you seed the #1's in your potential bracket?

Well first off, I agree this is very unlikely to happen. I was really just trying to have a little fun and speculate about the possibilities. I sort of set out to do a bracket with three teams in each "sub-bracket" and one that made Mount Union, UWW and SJU the No. 1 seeds without necessarily making all the "east" teams have to go to MUC.

Mission accomplished, but then this sort of became the leftovers bracket.

In the poll, my top four are UW-W, MUC, Wesley and St. John's ... I realize that's not exactly what you asked, and you're aware polls and selection criteria don't necessarily match. But I think no matter how you slice it, MUC and UWW should be 1-2 and should be split. This would pit Wesley and MUC for the first time if the seeds hold, but it would rematch SJU and UWW. Any other way, you risk the UWW-Wesley rematch that no one wants to see.

I don't know how you do it exactly. Maybe Central or Linfield sneaks a 1, but I think those are the four, barring something really ridiculous.

[K-Mack]

I really like the idea of teams playing different teams.  However, it seems too logical to be taken seriously.  The NCAA seems married to the idea of "regional brackets".  It has been only recently that they have taken the top 4 teams and made them all #1 seeds.

One thing to consider is that Dick Kaiser, the chairman of the selection committee for the past couple years, finished his term last year.  When Dr. Kaiser started was when we started seeing brackets built around what they considered the top 4 teams.  I'm hoping the new chair will inject new philosophies and ideas to the group like Dr. Kaiser seemed to.  Perhaps they will think outside the box and bring us some inter-regional brackets like some are hoping.

And, if we have three West Coast and three Deep South teams, expect the SCIAC teams to play each other and UMHB to travel to the Northwest.  That makes only 1 flight for the first round, which is what the bean-counters are looking for.

I think those are some good points, one about Dr. Kaiser, who was very open with us and sort of ushered in the "seed four No. 1s first" era. And the second about the multiple SCIAC teams.

We've seen travel trump the no-conference-rematches before, but I can't remember if there's ever been a case where they'd be forced to rematch teams that had just played the Saturday before. That would be weaksauce.

I also understand there's been an internal push to try to allow more flights in the first round, and while I don't think they've gotten anywhere with that officially, the optimists among us could hope for a situation where they allow two flights.

It's important to keep in mind that it's probably fairly unlikely CLU and Redlands will both get in anyway. Redlands would need to beat CLU but still lose out on the AQ due to the Rose Bowl Rule, then outgrade all the other Pool C candidates on the board. If Oxy loses to Whittier and Redlands steals the AQ, CLU won't get in with two losses, IMHO

Perhaps, altor, if we closely consider this ... one SCIAC, one NWC and one ASC, plus Miss Coll vs. Huntingdon ... that forces two flights, no?

[K-Mack]

Nice work K-Mack--here is my question about your proposed bracket:  If Redlands beats CLU and wins a Pool C selection--does CLU really still end up seated higher than them and get the home game in round 1?  Or might the committee look at the head to head when placing them in brackets and swap--give Redlands the home game and send CLU up to Linfield?  I only ask because, as a Linfield fan and somebody who has watched the SCIAC this year--Redlands looks like the better team (compared to CLU) and should they win on Saturday will confirm this--  So, it would seem a little "unfair" to give the weaker team the home game and send the better team on the road (not to mention a bit unfair to Linfield to have to face a better first round team than their ranking might otherwise dictate).

In Texas we understand that "fair" has nothing to do with it.  The only reason I think CLU and Redlands wouldn't meet again is because it would be back to back weeks, but if they did, it could also mean only 1 flight UMHB to Linfield.  Which match up would be more fair?  Redlands -Linfield or UMHB - Linfield

I actually think Redlands to MHB and CLU to Linfield would be more fair--and we know about the unfairness of it all in the Northwest as well....

You are probably right. I was speeding through assuming that Pool A teams were higher seeds than Pool C teams, but I made that mistake elsewhere ... once the 32 teams are in, the committee makes no distinction how you got in, so coming off the h2h win, Redlands would probably be more likely to host.

My theory is that the "extra"  island teams that are low seeds be sent to a top seed.  That, in theory, eliminates further flights and fits the normal seeding concept.  It makes no difference which Region they are sent to.

Yes and no. I doubt they are flying a West Coast team to Cleveland or Philadelphia (Dover) when they can fly them into Minneapolis.

The rest of your theory is worth considering though.

If it's one SCIAC, one NWC and three deep south, then somebody's on an island no matter how it's sliced. That probably means Huntingdon vs. Miss Coll, SCIAC to Linfield, and UMHB traveling or hosting.

[Ron Boerger]

We've seen travel trump the no-conference-rematches before, but I can't remember if there's ever been a case where they'd be forced to rematch teams that had just played the Saturday before. That would be weaksauce.

For what it's worth, they just did it in men's soccer, where Hardin-Simmons and UMHB are forced to play a rematch of last weekend's ASC championship match because they're the only two teams within 500 miles of Trinity, who got a bye (even though UMHB beat them earlier in the season) and faces the winner in the second round.  Not exactly the same situation, but close enough.

[D O.C.]

and a possibility that the Johnnies wouldn't even have to face one of those two teams to win the region.

because their magic ran out and they could not pull off another squeaker?

[K-Mack]

We've seen travel trump the no-conference-rematches before, but I can't remember if there's ever been a case where they'd be forced to rematch teams that had just played the Saturday before. That would be weaksauce.

For what it's worth, they just did it in men's soccer, where Hardin-Simmons and UMHB are forced to play a rematch of last weekend's ASC championship match because they're the only two teams within 500 miles of Trinity, who got a bye (even though UMHB beat them earlier in the season) and faces the winner in the second round.  Not exactly the same situation, but close enough.

Interesting.

Let's just say the same situation in football would be met with much scorn on these internets.

Anyway, like I said, it's not all that likely, so we've maybe already spent too much time talking about it.

Anyone think the Kean/Montclair State loser has a shot to get on the table from the East? It's just the Albright/Leb Val winner and loser, plus SJF and Plymouth State, right?

[wesleydad]

kmack, i love the wesley bracket.  there is not a team in it that the wolverines would not be clear favorites against.  plus playing all the games in dover is an added bonus.  I, also like your seeded of the ones.  I would much rather see wesley play mount then go to uwww again, i can make the drive to mount, not getting to the uwww game if it happens.  purely selfish reasons, but my friends at mount have also voiced an interest in playing the wolverines and it would be nice to see things mixed up a little bit.

[HSCTiger74]

Would have to be a DPU win.  7-2 DPU would not warrant a #5 seed (nor would 8-2 Wabash). 

That's kind of what I was assuming, but I figured if I was taking a 2 loss C out of the North, that probably wouldn't be the one.

But, I hate them more than anything in the entire world.  So my view is skewed.

And while I might not hate Hampden-Sydney more than anything ...

Gosh Keith, thanks.   

[altor]

If it's one SCIAC, one NWC and three deep south, then somebody's on an island no matter how it's sliced. That probably means Huntingdon vs. Miss Coll, SCIAC to Linfield, and UMHB traveling or hosting.

That was my theory when I posted my South/West bracket for comments a couple days ago.  With these five, UMHB almost certainly is flying somewhere, and the VA/NC area seems likely to me.