D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[smedindy]

Game book had it at 4th and 1.

4th and 1 at CC50    Timeout Bethel University, clock 02:20.

[hazzben]

Game book had it at 4th and 1.

4th and 1 at CC50    Timeout Bethel University, clock 02:20.

Wrong play. That was third down

Neal rush for 2 yards to the CC43, 1ST DOWN CC (TEAM).
Wolf rush for 3 yards to the CC46 (Seth Mathis).
Timeout Bethel University, clock 02:25.
Baune rush for 4 yards to the 50 yardline (J.D. Mehlhorn;Erik Smith).
Timeout Bethel University, clock 02:20.
Baune rush for no gain to the 50 yardline (T. Duppenthaler;Brett Skoog).
Timeout Concordia College, clock 01:35.
Harmelink punt 34 yards to the BETHEL16, Landen Strilzuk return 13 yards to the BETHEL29 (O'Brien).

Again, on 2nd and 7 they gained 4. Timeout Bethel, clock 02:20

3rd and 3, rush for no gain. Timeout Concordia, clock 01:35

SO, on 4th and 3 at CC50 they punt the ball. It was the right decision to kick it deep to a team with no Timeouts remaining.

[smedindy]

The game book was messed up as posted on D3 when I posted that (because I grabbed it from what the game book says here on the site) and I thought it was closer when I looked at the video. And I disagree with the call anyway. Punt-to-win = LOSE! Anything can happen when you give the ball back as you can see.

When you're facing the big dogs you can't let them have it back unless they wrest it from you.

[HSCTiger74]

The game book was messed up as posted on D3 when I posted that (because I grabbed it from what the game book says here on the site) and I thought it was closer when I looked at the video. And I disagree with the call anyway. Punt-to-win = LOSE! Anything can happen when you give the ball back as you can see.

When you're facing the big dogs you can't let them have it back unless they wrest it from you.

I wish you had been around to tell Ron Rivera that when the Panthers played the Falcons last Sunday. 

[hazzben]

And I disagree with the call anyway. Punt-to-win = LOSE! Anything can happen when you give the ball back as you can see.

When you're facing the big dogs you can't let them have it back unless they wrest it from you.

Maybe, but that depends largely on the identity of the team. Concordia is a very good defensive team. Part of the punt-to-win = LOSE mentality is a reflection of an offensive oriented mindset. I.e. only your offense can win the game for you. As a defensive player, I disagree with this. You can absolutely put your D out there with a mentality, 'go win this for us.' Given that the entire game was a defensive battle, this makes sense.

The coach has to make a decision based on his team and their strengths. Is their strength more likely to pick up 3 yds on 4th down or to prevent a team from going 70+ yds with no timeouts. It's easy to nit-pic Horan's decision with 20-20 hindsight (although had they not lost control of themselves the D would have actually won the game!), but he's the one who knows his team best.

Had he gone for it on 4th and 3 and failed he'd be a goat. At the 50, given what Bethel did on the last dive, they probably give up the score. We can debate it after the fact, but it's never as clear during the game.

[smedindy]

That's the issue - the coach is afraid to be the goat. Wabash went for it on 4th down against Witt instead of handing the ball back to the Tigers, made it and won. Had they gone for it, and were stopped, then the coach would have been second guessed by some. Not me. That was the right call.

[hazzben]

That's the issue - the coach is afraid to be the goat. Wabash went for it on 4th down against Witt instead of handing the ball back to the Tigers, made it and won. Had they gone for it, and were stopped, then the coach would have been second guessed by some. Not me. That was the right call.

Going for it is certainly an option. But 4th and 1 is a totally different scenario than 4th and 3. That was also a game where Witt had already scored 24 points. At that point in the game Bethel had only scored 7. That, and Concordia actually did get the stop, they just had a mental meltdown on the sidelines and gave Bethel new life.

[wally_wabash]

That's the issue - the coach is afraid to be the goat. Wabash went for it on 4th down against Witt instead of handing the ball back to the Tigers, made it and won. Had they gone for it, and were stopped, then the coach would have been second guessed by some. Not me. That was the right call.

Totally different situations, smeds.  When Wabash went for it on 4th down yesterday, there were still something like 7 minutes left in the game.  Wabash ran 13 more plays AFTER that fourth down conversion.  I've got 5 that says if there were under two minutes to play, with Witt exhausted of timeouts, Raeburn punts and makes Witt drive the field against the defense. 

You can probably find as many, if not more, examples of teams punting from around midfield with less than 2 minutes left and winning the game than you will of teams losing.  And if not for such an egregious lack of discipline by people who had nothing to do with the play, Concordia-Moorhead wins.  The coach did his job.  The players on the field did their jobs.  It was spoiled by spectators. 

[smedindy]

I disagree but it's semantics at this time due to the colossal discipline meltdown. And realistically, my disgust of punt-to-win was when I thought it was 4th and closer than 3 (based on my viewing and the game book I saw posted here). You control the ball and frankly you tell your team (offense AND defense) that you trust them all by going for it. You tell the offense that you can get a yard or two (3 is the gray area, but again the book said 4th and 1 and it looked closer than 3 when I saw the vid) and you tell the defense you can stop them no matter what.

Punt-to-win is risk averse. I'm sure Ron Rivera wish he didn't punt two weeks ago.

[smedindy]

At any rate I couldn't pull the trigger on Concordia. There are a lot of teams swimming from 20-35 or so.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

Going to give it another day because I don't have all the ballots yet. But it will be up for sure tonight all ballots or not.

[hazzben]

Going to give it another day because I don't have all the ballots yet. But it will be up for sure tonight all ballots or not.

Thanks for working on this Griz

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

2012 WEEK 6 TOP 25 FAN POLL

Rank         Team                            Points   Prev Rank
  1)   Mount Union (6)        174    1
  2)   Mary Hardin-Baylor (1) 169    2
  3)   Linfield               158    3
  4)   St Thomas              151    5
  5)   Wesley                 149    4
  6)   Salisbury              137    7
  7)   UW-Whitewater          136    6
  8)   Cal Lutheran           120    9
  9)   Bethel                 116    8
10)   North Central          112   11
11)   UW-Oshkosh              94   13
12)   UW Platteville          88   12
13)   St John Fisher          86   10
14)   Hobart                  69   14
15)   Wabash                  67   16
16)   Birmingham-Southern     65   15
17)   Illinois Wesleyan       57   17
18)   Widener                 53   18
T19)   Heidelberg              45   19
T19)   Wheaton                 45   20
21)   Louisiana College       37   21
22)   Franklin                29   22
23)   Johns Hopkins           25   24
24)   Huntingdon              16   23
25)   Otterbein               14   NR   

Dropped Out: Wittenberg

Also Receiving Votes: Rowan (10), Willamette (10), Waynesburg (9), Concordia-Moorhead (8), Salve Regina (7), Wittenberg (6), Gettysburg (6), Delaware Valley (4), Coe (3)   

Voters: 02 Warhawk, bleedpurple, FCGrizzliesGrad, hazzben, newcardfan, short, smedindy

[02 Warhawk]

Interesting to see the number of teams in Also Receiving Votes is dwindling down. That means we'll mostly agreeing on who the top teams in DIII are.

[K-Mack]

And I disagree with the call anyway. Punt-to-win = LOSE! Anything can happen when you give the ball back as you can see.

When you're facing the big dogs you can't let them have it back unless they wrest it from you.

Maybe, but that depends largely on the identity of the team. Concordia is a very good defensive team. Part of the punt-to-win = LOSE mentality is a reflection of an offensive oriented mindset. I.e. only your offense can win the game for you. As a defensive player, I disagree with this. You can absolutely put your D out there with a mentality, 'go win this for us.' Given that the entire game was a defensive battle, this makes sense.

The coach has to make a decision based on his team and their strengths. Is their strength more likely to pick up 3 yds on 4th down or to prevent a team from going 70+ yds with no timeouts. It's easy to nit-pic Horan's decision with 20-20 hindsight (although had they not lost control of themselves the D would have actually won the game!), but he's the one who knows his team best.

Had he gone for it on 4th and 3 and failed he'd be a goat. At the 50, given what Bethel did on the last dive, they probably give up the score. We can debate it after the fact, but it's never as clear during the game.

I tend to agree with this.

All late but still.