D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[02 Warhawk]

I'm still surprised St. John's isn't getting votes by some, I had them ranked since day one. Following the C-M game I started second guessing my thoughts about the Johnnies and dropped them out of my top 25. The following week I put them right back in after the impressive win over St. Thomas (ranking them just behind C-M).

I think this is one of the more interesting threads on these boards. It's interesting hearing everyone's thoughts on how teams should be ranked.

[smedindy]

Tell the MIAC to be normal and stop beating up on each other!

[BoBo]

As for the Tommies in the top 10...I have no answer for that.

Still: UST has one truly impressive win against UW-LaCrosse, a blowout of an undermanned St. Olaf team, a close shave against 0-4 UWEC, and the loss to St. John's. 

...and what exactly makes beating UWL impressive? I've watched all or a majority of all four UWL games and they are a very below average team in every facet of the game. I challenge you to name one thing about the this team that impresses you? In fact, I wouldn't pick them as the favorite in any of their remain WIAC games. So, it's a distinct possibility that they could finish off this season with a 9 game losing streak. That's hardly impressive.   

If you read my post, you'd see that I am arguing UST should be ranked a lot lower than they are.  I'm not using the UWL game as a reason they should be ranked high, merely noting that's the best result on their schedule.  While UWL may not be very good, UST rolled them 46-0 and outgained them 519-133, it's not like they struggled.
 
UMHB beat them 41-22 and outgained them 514-337 (although much of UWL's yardage came with the game already decided).
UWW beat them 38-7 and outgained them 619-155.

I don't like reading into stats from garbage time that much, but still, at least UST blew the doors off UWL just as easily as UMHB and UWW did.  This is not equivalent to saying that UST is just as good as UMHB and UWW based on that one game, either.

Also, I think evaluating UWL as below-average in every facet of the game is kind of hard to do when they've played a three-game stretch against that murderer's row.  Every team outside the top 20-25 teams in Division III would look significantly below-average against those three.  I'm not a WIAC fan, so I don't know enough to predict whether they'll go winless the rest of the way...but they did beat Dubuque on the road more easily than UWP beat Dubuque at home, so I'm not sure how UWL is that hopeless.

And, as I said, even if they are a 2-8 team in the WIAC, rolling a team 46-0 and outgained them 4-to-1 is pretty thorough dominance.  Doing that against any opponent from a tough conference is an OK win.

I read your post and understood everything, but that sentence stopped me in my tracks. I just think you should know, because you won't get this from a casual glance at the team stats or score.  UWL starting QB (Trent Cummings) has played 2 games this season, vs Dubuque, a 24-8 win in the season opener and last weeks 38-7 loss to UWW. He started 6 games last year in addition to the 2 this year. He got injured at DU and missed the UST game; his backup (Colton Peterson) started and played the entire game - it was his first collegiate start and first time in a game. During the week after that game, he was kicked off the team (his stat line of 6-13- 66 yards was not the reason, it was breaking team rules). So for UMHB, the Eagles turned to their third different QB (John Tackett) a freshman in his first collegiate start.  He did OK, considering.  But, anyways, three different games, 3 different QB's, two of them making their first collegiate start in some difficult circumstances, but basically the same result.

So, I can see that a observer seeing that this team has played 3 top 25 teams in the early season polls, would expect them to have little success. But, rather just looking at stats, I've watched La Crosse in every game this year.  My evaluation is based on what I've seen this year with my own eyes playing against 1 really good team (UWW), one good team (UMHB) and one (UST) that I feel would finish 3rd or 4th in this years WIAC, as of right now & DU. I've watched and admired the Eagles program going back to the early 70's when they were the Indians (to me, they still are the Indians), through many conference and National Championships, and future NFL players on their roster. They are just the shell of what they used to be & not even that competitive like they were just a 1/2 dozen years ago. La Crosse was the gold standard, but not now. I don't speak for all WIAC fans, but for this one it's quite sad, really. The WIAC is much better with a strong UW-La Crosse football team.

However, when I think about it, I may have been premature saying they were below average in every facet of the game - they were very good in kick returning, while WW was uncharacteristically slack in their coverage unit. But, it's not a good thing getting as many opportunities as they did. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

I dropped out Ithaca and Lycoming, with DePauw and Buff St replacing them.  Otherwise, only minor tinkering.

[02 Warhawk]

I dropped out Ithaca and Lycoming, with DePauw and Buff St replacing them.  Otherwise, only minor tinkering.

Same here, with Delaware Valley and Texas Lutheran replacing them.

[D3MAFAN]

I dropped Ithaca and added both Buff St and Texas Lutheran.

[thewaterboy]

I'm always a little skeptical about TLU for whatever reason. I dropped Ithaca and Lyco, added Del Val and Hampden-Sydney going off of the D3 Top 25 voters.

Buff State is close to getting there for me. They still need one more solid win IMO. Ithaca is convincing, but Cortland (1-4) seemed to have played them pretty tight in the opener, a close win over a Salisbury team that we dont know the quality of yet and a loss to 3-2 Alfred.

I have been messing around with the 6-8 positions on my ballot. This week I went Wartburg, Hobart and John Carroll. After the first five, every spot is up for grabs. Last week I had Hobart, Wartburg and JCU. JCU at 8 because of eeking by Ohio Northern.

[Tekken]

I'd like y'alls take on a sincere question.  Is TLU just eternally doomed in these national rankings due to their geographical location, unless they change their modus operandi or beat UMHB at some point?  Obviously, that game holds merit based on UMHB's national credibility, but otherwise what else can they do that they have not already?  They are 15-1 over the last two years, so it's not like this years 6-0 start is a flash in the pan.  They have beaten every other "heavyweight" their geographical footprint will allow in those last two years (Trinity, HSU, LC, ETBU, MC, all on the road).  Additionally, they've got the DIII national leader in rushing yards, 12th best team offense by ypg, and 16th best team rushing offense.  Granted, statistically the defense struggles, but when you throw up 40 - 50 points a game with a hurry up quick strike offense, that's somewhat to be expected, solely on the volume of defensive plays you will see. 

So without either slowing their offense down to make their defense look better, or playing UMHB closely/winning(something very few of the elites even do) are they just kind of SOL based on circumstance?  Otherwise, what else can they do?

[thewaterboy]

I'd like y'alls take on a sincere question.  Is TLU just eternally doomed in these national rankings due to their geographical location, unless they change their modus operandi or beat UMHB at some point?  Obviously, that game holds merit based on UMHB's national credibility, but otherwise what else can they do that they have not already?  They are 15-1 over the last two years, so it's not like this years 6-0 start is a flash in the pan.  They have beaten every other "heavyweight" their geographical footprint will allow in those last two years (Trinity, HSU, LC, ETBU, MC, all on the road).  Additionally, they've got the DIII national leader in rushing yards, 12th best team offense by ypg, and 16th best team rushing offense.  Granted, statistically the defense struggles, but when you throw up 40 - 50 points a game with a hurry up quick strike offense, that's somewhat to be expected, solely on the volume of defensive plays you will see. 

So without either slowing their offense down to make their defense look better, or playing UMHB closely/winning(something very few of the elites even do) are they just kind of SOL based on circumstance?  Otherwise, what else can they do?

For me its TLU's SOS that gets me. Coming in at 226 last year nationally. With only 3 conference games, that is kind of low IMO. You really need to go undefeated with that schedule. Giving up 73 points to a 4-6 Hardin Simmons team just doesnt cut it.

In terms of this year, I think TLU is a good team, but I am apprehensive about their narrow win against an LC team who proceeded to get dismantled by Wesley that could've easily been a loss had it not been for the coach. I think if they beat UMHB or at least play them close would go a long way in helping them with national recognition (at least IMO). Their schedule just isn't very impressive. Those individual stats, as good and as impressive as they may be, don't hold much bearing when the SOS is low.

[Tekken]

For me its TLU's SOS that gets me. Coming in at 226 last year nationally. With only 3 conference games, that is kind of low IMO. You really need to go undefeated with that schedule. Giving up 73 points to a 4-6 Hardin Simmons team just doesnt cut it.

In terms of this year, I think TLU is a good team, but I am apprehensive about their narrow win against an LC team who proceeded to get dismantled by Wesley that could've easily been a loss had it not been for the coach. I think if they beat UMHB or at least play them close would go a long way in helping them with national recognition (at least IMO). Their schedule just isn't very impressive. Those individual stats, as good and as impressive as they may be, don't hold much bearing when the SOS is low.

I understand your stance, but you kind of make my point.  Aside their game with UMHB, it sounds like you are saying there really is nothing else they can do to help them without leaving their geographical footprint, as there is no other way to further strengthen their SOS within it.

[Toby Taff]

I'd like y'alls take on a sincere question.  Is TLU just eternally doomed in these national rankings due to their geographical location, unless they change their modus operandi or beat UMHB at some point?  Obviously, that game holds merit based on UMHB's national credibility, but otherwise what else can they do that they have not already?  They are 15-1 over the last two years, so it's not like this years 6-0 start is a flash in the pan.  They have beaten every other "heavyweight" their geographical footprint will allow in those last two years (Trinity, HSU, LC, ETBU, MC, all on the road).  Additionally, they've got the DIII national leader in rushing yards, 12th best team offense by ypg, and 16th best team rushing offense.  Granted, statistically the defense struggles, but when you throw up 40 - 50 points a game with a hurry up quick strike offense, that's somewhat to be expected, solely on the volume of defensive plays you will see. 

So without either slowing their offense down to make their defense look better, or playing UMHB closely/winning(something very few of the elites even do) are they just kind of SOL based on circumstance?  Otherwise, what else can they do?

if tlu has a respectable showing against UMHB, they'll likely get more love than they are now. If  you listen to the around the nation podcast from this week, you'll find they are getting some love, just not love from everyone. Not playing UMHB last season while playing everyone else in the ASC and then getting manhandled by a bad HSU team didn't help. I watched the TLU ETBU game and the LC game both could have gone either way. Ask yourself what voters have to ask, "would i put either of those teams in the top 25?" TLU seems to be just a bit better. In 2 weeks, TLU gets its shot, at home, against UMHB with 2 weeks to prepare. Coach Padron knows the Cru well and will have them ready. If TLU is impressive, they will get love, i'd bet money on that. If they get monkey stomped, we'll have to see how impressive the play was.

[Pat Coleman]

For me its TLU's SOS that gets me. Coming in at 226 last year nationally. With only 3 conference games, that is kind of low IMO. You really need to go undefeated with that schedule. Giving up 73 points to a 4-6 Hardin Simmons team just doesnt cut it.

In terms of this year, I think TLU is a good team, but I am apprehensive about their narrow win against an LC team who proceeded to get dismantled by Wesley that could've easily been a loss had it not been for the coach. I think if they beat UMHB or at least play them close would go a long way in helping them with national recognition (at least IMO). Their schedule just isn't very impressive. Those individual stats, as good and as impressive as they may be, don't hold much bearing when the SOS is low.

I understand your stance, but you kind of make my point.  Aside their game with UMHB, it sounds like you are saying there really is nothing else they can do to help them without leaving their geographical footprint, as there is no other way to further strengthen their SOS within it.

Or win playoff games, the way UMHB initially got that respect. And they have since expanded their footprint to go play UW-Whitewater and Wesley in regular season games, to keep their edge.

[Pat Coleman]

Not playing UMHB last season while playing everyone else in the ASC and then getting manhandled by a bad HSU team didn't help.

I would agree with that, and based on who is on their schedule, I'm just waiting until the UMHB game at this point.

[Tekken]

Or win playoff games, the way UMHB initially got that respect. And they have since expanded their footprint to go play UW-Whitewater and Wesley in regular season games, to keep their edge.

Again, I agree this would do it.  But if this is the only other option, you are back to square one.  Without playing UMHB tight (something anyone ranked outside the big 4/5 almost never do), you can't get into the playoffs.  And if you can't get into the playoffs, you are back at your only chance getting in being in essence a top 5 team nationally by competing with UMHB.  Catch 22.

[Tekken]

I'm not being an apologist, I swear, just an honest critical thinker. 

To play UMHB last year, who would UMHB have dropped from non-conference schedule?  Wesley, Kean, Rowan, or Trinity?  Again, back to the question of being landlocked.  There are only so many teams to go around in the region.

And as a point of clarification regarding the end of the LC game, the coach didn't just make a bonehead move.  The LC qb was in the process of rushing everyone to the line to clock the ball, as they had no timeouts and only 6 seconds on a ticking clock.  However, they had already been forced into using all their timeouts, previously.  So in essence, the poor kid clocks the ball on 4th down and ends the game, or the coach hopes he doesn't get a flag but has to get close enough to communicate to his qb he has to change course.  An awkward ending, undoubtedly, but more a product of TLU putting themselves in a position to with three consecutive stops inside the ten, and forcing prior timeouts, than of the coach making a mistake.  He just looks the goat without the proper context.