D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[wally_wabash]

02- Glad you got this started.
I like your top 3 (and I think there is room for discussion between #2 and #3).
I struggle with the following teams:
Wesley- I didn't see them at full strength, however against UWW, I did not see a #4 team- but I can't justify moving somebody else into this spot.

I think this is the problem when UMU fans and now UWW fans (I should say SOME fans...certainly not all fans do this) start to grade out teams that they walloped on the way to Salem.  In your mind, you think that if UWW and UMU are 1 and 2, then 3 and 4 shouldn't be all that far behind.  So when y'all thump a semifinal participant by three scores or more, it's natural to say "hmmm...they sure didn't look like a final four team."  Guess what?  Nobody does when they play Whitewater or Mount Union.  Here's the deal...UWW and UMU are that much better.  That's the chasm that has been created. 

That having been said, I don't think you can give anybody who didn't play and beat UMU the benefit of the doubt that they would be better than UMU...in this case NCC.  North Central was an outstanding team this season, no doubt about it.  And while I do think that poll voting should be done in a year-to-year vacuum, those rules don't apply to Mount Union.  There's just too much evidence going back too many years now to not believe that year after year, class after class, Mount Union is going to be the best team in Division III (obviously, that tier now has two occupants, but UWW had to get there and beat them to earn it...nobody assumed UWW would do it until it happened).  So with all due respect to North Central and the great season they had, I don't think you can make a reasonable case that they ought to have been ranked higher than Mount Union at any time this season.  Basically, until UWW and UMU start losing games to somebody other than each other, they have to be 1 and 2 (in some order) in this polling. 

I'll put my final top 25 up here later tonight.  I'll save some suspense though...DePauw did not make the cut.   

[02 Warhawk]

02- Glad you got this started.
I like your top 3 (and I think there is room for discussion between #2 and #3).
I struggle with the following teams:
Wesley- I didn't see them at full strength, however against UWW, I did not see a #4 team- but I can't justify moving somebody else into this spot.

I think this is the problem when UMU fans and now UWW fans (I should say SOME fans...certainly not all fans do this) start to grade out teams that they walloped on the way to Salem.  In your mind, you think that if UWW and UMU are 1 and 2, then 3 and 4 shouldn't be all that far behind.  So when y'all thump a semifinal participant by three scores or more, it's natural to say "hmmm...they sure didn't look like a final four team."  Guess what?  Nobody does when they play Whitewater or Mount Union.  Here's the deal...UWW and UMU are that much better.  That's the chasm that has been created. 

Personally I think I ranked the five teams that Whitewater beat in the playoffs fairly high. Infact I ranked Trine and Franklin both in the top 18...then of course I put Mount, NCC and Wesley 2nd, 3rd and 4th....so I'm not sure where you're getting this. unless I fall outside your "SOME fans" category.   

[02 Warhawk]

So with all due respect to North Central and the great season they had, I don't think you can make a reasonable case that they ought to have been ranked higher than Mount Union at any time this season.

I hear what you're saying I seriously thought about putting NCC in the #2 spot in my poll...but I couldn't pull he trigger on it. I think they were UWW's toughest game of the year...but Mount did run the table, only to lose in the Stagg Bowl. That in itself warrants a #2 spot.

[Mr. Ypsi]

So with all due respect to North Central and the great season they had, I don't think you can make a reasonable case that they ought to have been ranked higher than Mount Union at any time this season.

I hear what you're saying I seriously thought about putting NCC in the #2 spot in my poll...but I couldn't pull he trigger on it. I think they were UWW's toughest game of the year...but Mount did run the table, only to lose in the Stagg Bowl. That in itself warrants a #2 spot.

The downside of automatically voting the Stagg Bowl loser as #2 is that that gives the bracket-makers too much power!   Hypothetically it is certainly possible that the second-best team happened to be on the Champ's side of the bracket.  (If the selection committee DOES ever put UMU and UWW in the same half (or even quarter) of the bracket, I'll have to remember to dig up this post! )

I think a plausible argument CAN be made for NCC #2 this year, but, ultimately, I couldn't pull the trigger either.

[02 Warhawk]

So with all due respect to North Central and the great season they had, I don't think you can make a reasonable case that they ought to have been ranked higher than Mount Union at any time this season.

I hear what you're saying I seriously thought about putting NCC in the #2 spot in my poll...but I couldn't pull he trigger on it. I think they were UWW's toughest game of the year...but Mount did run the table, only to lose in the Stagg Bowl. That in itself warrants a #2 spot.

The downside of automatically voting the Stagg Bowl loser as #2 is that that gives the bracket-makers too much power!  Hypothetically it is certainly possible that the second-best team happened to be on the Champ's side of the bracket.  (If the selection committee DOES ever put UMU and UWW in the same half (or even quarter) of the bracket, I'll have to remember to dig up this post! )

I think a plausible argument CAN be made for NCC #2 this year, but, ultimately, I couldn't pull the trigger either.

I think the only way UWW and Mount end up on the same side of the bracket, is if they don't finish #1 and #2 in the final regular season poll. With that being said, I think (and I hope) the committee with continue to put the #1 and #2 two teams on the opposite side of each other. Even if the #1 seed overall gets a #2 regional seed  

yea, it would of been interesting if Bethel would of beat UMU, but then lost to UWW in the Stagg Bowl. In that case, I can't see putting Bethel as #2 in the country for the final poll.

[Ralph Turner]

I saw that the final regular season poll only had 20 participants (of which I was not one... just had too many other things to do on other boards.)

If I may submit one for consideration as one of the "final five voters", then here.

1)  UWW
2)  UMU
3)  NCC
4)  Wesley
5)  UMHB
6)  Bethel
7)  St Thomas
8)  Linfield
9)  Ohio Northern
10) Trine
11) Wheaton IL
12) Wartburg
13) Alfred
14) Coe
15) Delaware Valley
16) Hardin-Simmons
17) Pacific Lutheran
18) Wittenberg
19) Cal Lutheran
20) Franklin
21) Louisiana College
22) Cortland State
23) Montclair State
24) Central
25) Rowan

[emma17]

Wally, since you replied to my quote, I will assume you directed this comment at me "I think this is the problem when UMU fans and now UWW fans (I should say SOME fans...certainly not all fans do this) start to grade out teams that they walloped on the way to Salem.  In your mind, you think that if UWW and UMU are 1 and 2, then 3 and 4 shouldn't be all that far behind".

Speaking only for myself and not the "SOME" fans you referred to, my opinion of the rankings has nothing to do with walloped teams. 
I consider the individual characteristics of the teams I've seen or followed.  I look for strengths and weaknesses that I feel would be material if the teams played head to head.  In my opinion, Mt and NCC would be an excellent game and, therefore, discussion is warranted for the #2 and #3 ranking.  I believe Mt's big play offense would be limited against NCC because of their excellent discipline and their d line speed.  NCC would definately shut down Mt's run game.  NCC would struggle to run against Mt because they don't really run a true power game, which plays into Mt's speed. 

I think the Wesley that played UWW this year losses to NCC.  Wesley is similar (in style, not ability) to Mt in their big play offense and their defensive statistics that were heavily influenced by the types of offenses they played.  I believe NCC's discipline makes Wesley's offense ineffective.  I believe NCC grinds out enough points against Wesley's d to win. 

I believe UMHB showed again that although they are trying, they are still too one dimentional.  A solid, disciplined run defense with speed gives UMHB all kinds of trouble.  There are quite a few teams with defenses like that- including Bethel, St. Thomas and Wheaton.  UMHB defense was decent, but certainly not great, so teams like Linfield and Trine put up lots of points- and probably enough to get the win. 

Again, this is all my opinion based on strengths and weaknesses that I have seen or read about, but it has nothing to do with whether UWW or Mt walloped anybody.     

[wally_wabash]

That's all fine, emma.  My point is simply that Mount Union has been so dominant for so long that even when a team seems to rise up and looks like they could give Mount Union a game, it's probably not appropriate to rank that team ahead of Mount Union until there is some empirical evidence, namely a h2h result, that they actually are better than Mount Union.  Over the years there have been several such teams and without fail when that team gets a shot, they get squashed.  Mount Union and now UWW as well have accrued that kind of benefit of the doubt capital with poll voters...they ought to be 1 and 2 until it is proven that they aren't. 

Debating the ranking of NCC and Wesley on the other hand.  That ranking could go either way based on how that hypothetical game plays out in the voter's head.  I believe I moved NCC ahead of Wesley after NCC whipped up on Wheaton and in fact have NCC ranked ahead of Wesley in my final ballot as well.  But I wouldn't even consider NCC ahead of Mount Union. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

That's all fine, emma.  My point is simply that Mount Union has been so dominant for so long that even when a team seems to rise up and looks like they could give Mount Union a game, it's probably not appropriate to rank that team ahead of Mount Union until there is some empirical evidence, namely a h2h result, that they actually are better than Mount Union.  Over the years there have been several such teams and without fail when that team gets a shot, they get squashed.  Mount Union and now UWW as well have accrued that kind of benefit of the doubt capital with poll voters...they ought to be 1 and 2 until it is proven that they aren't. 

Debating the ranking of NCC and Wesley on the other hand.  That ranking could go either way based on how that hypothetical game plays out in the voter's head.  I believe I moved NCC ahead of Wesley after NCC whipped up on Wheaton and in fact have NCC ranked ahead of Wesley in my final ballot as well.  But I wouldn't even consider NCC ahead of Mount Union. 

I would (and did) for three primary reasons.  Coppage against NCC: 107 yards; Coppage against UMU: 299 yards.  The vaunted UMU offense was shut out by UWW for 56 minutes of the game (only a four minute explosion in the second quarter kept the game from a rout).  UMU never led UWW in the second half; NCC led entering the 4th quarter.

Ultimately I kept UMU as #2, for reasons pretty much as you expressed them.  But to not even consider voting NCC #2 is placing way too much importance on past history and not enough on 2010.

[Ralph Turner]

Good comments, emma17.

You outlined exactly why I voted the way that I did.

The UWW band traveled to NCC, so some of the home field advantage was neutralized.

I want fans from outside the ASC to realize that UMHB got several tough games in the ASC.

Here is my post after the McMurry game, which UMHB won 43-31, but gave up 5 TD's.

To be down 22-0 and then score 25 straight points to take the lead and the finally lose the game by a margin of a recovered fumble for a TD, a safety, a kickoff return and then an INT for a TD is exasperating.

The good side that I see from this is that we held Daniels and Bailey to "below average" production

Rushing              No Gain Loss  Net TD Lg  Avg
-------------------------------------------------
Quincy Daniels       27  109   10   99  1 18  3.7
LiDarral Bailey      17  106   21   85  1 39  5.0

and we had this performance in only the 13th game of the new system.

We catch HSU in the 18th game of the new system. That game might be for a share of the conference lead.

UMHB lives inside HSU's head.  The CRU always gets a hard game from HSU, but they just have the number of the Cowboys, (just as HSU has McMurry's number.)

Louisiana College was an INT in the end zone against UMHB away from getting the Pool A bid for the ASC. Louisiana College beat HSU in Louisiana this year.

I think that all three ASC teams deserve to be in the Top25.  In the playoffs, UMHB just demolished the other 2 South Region teams, CNU 59-7 and Thomas More 69-7.

[bleedpurple]

Final D3 Top 25 Fan Poll has been released.


www.uwwfootball.com

[wally_wabash]

FWIW, here's my final top 25:

1    Whitewater
2    Mount Union
3    North Central
4    Wesley
5    Bethel
6    St. Thomas
7    UMHB
8    Linfield
9    Wheaton
10    Ohio Northern
11    Trine
12    Delaware Valley
13    Coe
14    Alfred
15    Wartburg
16    Franklin
17    Thomas More
18    Montclair State
19    Pacific Lutheran
20    Cal Lutheran
21    Hardin-Simmons
22    Hampden-Sydney
23    Wittenberg
24    Rowan
25    Cortland State

From the week 11 poll to this poll, Alfred moved in and Wabash fell out.  The other 24 are the same with some requisite shuffling based on how they did in the tournament. 

[sflzman]

I want to know where everyone had Trine at in their polls...

I had them at 10...

[usee]

I had them #6

[Mr. Ypsi]

#8.