D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[bleedpurple]

I don't think one should take into consideration what teams did in previous seasons...but that's just me.

It's interesting to discuss the different philosophies people use in determining their ballots.  I would think it would be hard to look at the current season in a complete vacuum.  For example, it's hard to believe UW-W would be a unanimous #1 choice if Mount Union had won the Stagg Bowl last year! 

[usee]

I agree you shouldn't consider what teams did in previous seasons but that cannot be an absolute. If you are considering how many players a team has returning isn't that, in a sense, about last season? The reality is you can't completely separate one year from the next. In an ideal world you can and we certainly try to but it's really not possible. But clearly it plays into everyone's bias. HOw else do you explain the difference in ranking between St Thomas and Bethel? Or the respect the poll gives St Johns every year? One of the reason's we know a team, or a conference, is any good is what they have traditionally done in the post season from past years. Now, for Trine, I happen to have seen them all Live and am very comfortable with my assessment of those teams. I understand why others have them ranked differently. I may be proven wrong but I am certain there are other teams who will lose early or win late that will prove each of us wrong. that's why we have this board and this process.

[seventiesraider]

I don't think one should take into consideration what teams did in previous seasons...but that's just me.

It's interesting to discuss the different philosophies people use in determining their ballots.  I would think it would be hard to look at the current season in a complete vacuum.  For example, it's hard to believe UW-W would be a unanimous #1 choice if Mount Union had won the Stagg Bowl last year! 

Ya got me there. So there are also a couple of "tangibles"

[smedindy]

maybe he'll give Witt some love if they beat Wabash this weekend.

Smedindy mentions the strength of schedule stats from Massey. He ranks Wittenberg's "played" schedule 207 and remaining schedule 169.


I accept the fact that you can only play the teams on your schedule but as a newbie voter I can say having a very weak schedule leads us to talking about last year and other irrelevant topics. We can only judge the body of work that the team has displayed. Yes there are still certain intangibles to consider otherwise Mount Union could be anywhere in the top 10. It's those intangibles that even got Trine into the top 15, certainly not who they beat.

I don't figure last year at all into the equation, especially now. It is the body of work. And I don't like Trine's as much as I like others.

I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

[K-Mack]

I agree-I have sometimes wondered how SJU is ranked at the beginning of a year. I think all teams should be evaluated based on the players they lose to graduation-obviously, UWW and Mount are replacing those very well of late, or with Mount the last 15 years.

Yeah, one of the best tools our voters have is a spreadsheet with how many back at each position, key injuries returnees, all americans, HC/OC/DC changes. It's a great tool for getting a feel for who among last year's top 25 can and can't repeat. So is Kickoff. I mean we saw Albright not going back to the playoffs, and we saw Ursinus coming, for instance. Sometimes even we're suprised.

As I posted earlier, not sure if SJU is one the consistently overrated teams if you look to winning the conference and making the playoffs. Now, if you are talking about the "ranking" in your poll, then you might have an argument

Well since this thread is the "Top 25 Fan Poll" thread, and the phrase in question is "overranked" and not "overrated," yes, we are talking about rankings.

Hasn't the thought always been that absent those two, any one of ten or so teams could win the championship? It is pretty much a guess, maybe educated, as to the remainder of the top ten, you could probably switch #3 for #10 and make a good argument.

Not quite. There's the 1 and 2, and then there's maybe four or six more teams that could be semifinalists in a good year. For a while UMHB was a clear No. 3. Wesley seems to have assumed that mantle, even if some of us don't have the Wolverines at 3 in our individual ballots, they are the clear national 3 most of the past 2 seasons. And justified it.

Then after that, maybe from 8 to somewhere in the teens is another tier, and then maybe 16 to 35 are more interchangable. I don't think 3 and 10 are interchangeable by any means.

Certainly people could argue about where the tiers begin and end, and the arugments would probably be valid.

I really need to find and re-link Gordon's tiers post. Broke it down very well.

[K-Mack]

The turf makes such a huge difference.  Especially late in the year. If there have been a couple of "weather games" over the course of a season, grass fields can get pretty tore up by the end of the year. Before the Field Turf, I know in  playoff games, I was always concerned with the D-Line's ability to get the traction necessary to rush the passer when a passing team would come to town.  Now it's less of a variable. 

And, as teams have gone to it almost without fail over the past 10 years, it's less of a variable from field to field.

All 39 games in my career were on grass. These days, grass I think is the anomaly. And like you said, it (no pun intended) levels the playing field late in the season.

[K-Mack]

We can only judge the body of work that the team has displayed. Yes there are still certain intangibles to consider otherwise Mount Union could be anywhere in the top 10. It's those intangibles that even got Trine into the top 15, certainly not who they beat.

Wait, so you can only judge the body of work AND intangibles?

In other words, a team can be whatever you think it should be?

Because I agree that you should mostly focus on this year's body of work. And with regard to weak schedules, while you shouldn't penalize the Witts and Trines of the world, you are comparing them to other unbeaten teams who have played good opponents, so that's why they don't stack up. In the playoffs they might prove to be better, but until they play someone good, how can you know?

[wally_wabash]

All 39 games in my career were on grass. These days, grass I think is the anomaly. And like you said, it (no pun intended) levels the playing field late in the season.

I know that Wabash will have played all 10 of their games this season without a single grass stained uniform.  10 games, not one single blade of natural grass.  I feel like this shouldn't shock me given the trend, but for some reason it does.  And I'm sure Wabash isn't the only school who plays every game on synth turf. 

[seventiesraider]

I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

And that's where it comes down to the individuals own logic, I have Trine in and Witt out because I figured if Trine's opponents where uniformly better across the board they would probably have faired as well as far as victories. Applying that logic to Wittenberg's schedule, I perceive them losing 1,2, or 3 games.

I do have to say that who ever comes out as the victor of the Bash - Witt game pushes some of the outliers out of the top 25 at least on my spreadsheet

[jam40jeff]

I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

Was it an "intangible" that caused CMU to miss a 30-yard chip shot at the end of regulation that would have beaten Witt?

[smedindy]

I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

Was it an "intangible" that caused CMU to miss a 30-yard chip shot at the end of regulation that would have beaten Witt?

Voodoo...

[bleedpurple]

Lots of games today that could make for some Top 25 re-shuffling! Should be a fun day! 

[sflzman]

Lots of games today that could make for some Top 25 re-shuffling! Should be a fun day! 

What day is not fun when there's football to play? 

[02 Warhawk]

Lots of games today that could make for some Top 25 re-shuffling! Should be a fun day! 

What day is not fun when there's football to play? 

11/13 for LaCrosse football players...

[seventiesraider]

I rate Witt higher because they won games that other teams without as many 'intangibles' would have lost.

Was it an "intangible" that caused CMU to miss a 30-yard chip shot at the end of regulation that would have beaten Witt?

Voodoo...

I grudgingly allowed Witt into the Top 25 this week, or actually the Bottom of the 25

NOTE: The D3 Fan Poll will not be published till Wednesday this week