D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[BoBo]

Massey says Franklin isn't as good as Whitewater!

Massey is an Einstein, that's if there really is a Massey!! 

[smedindy]

Ken Massey. He's real. Along with Jeff Sagarin. (And Ken Pomeroy, whose basketball ratings are quite good...)

Just trying to make sense of a bunch of data points without any biases. Well, as few biases as you can have.

But I use it as just another data point. It would be no fun to just regurgitate the Massey ratings as my Top 25.

[CruFrenzy]

I dont know, i dont quite get why Massey has Amherst at No.2.

[smedindy]

For some reason, he's got the NESCAC in the D-3 ratings this year when he used to exclude them into their own bucket because they were never connected to anyone else. If you go to the main ratings (not just the D-3 ratings) in group 1 the NESCAC isn't there. Of course, that has everyone so you have to pick through the D-3 schools.

What it does show is that Whitewater (212) has a better power rating than Memphis (217)!

[BoBo]

What it does show is that Whitewater (212) has a better power rating than Memphis (217)!

[Ralph Turner]

I dont know, i dont quite get why Massey has Amherst at No.2.

It reminds me of one of the choices for the multiple choice questions that I used to take, back in the day.

"True, true, unrelated"

[02 Warhawk]

I dont know, i dont quite get why Massey has Amherst at No.2.

That's why I don't look at it....useless

[DBQ1965]

I dont know, i dont quite get why Massey has Amherst at No.2.

That's why I don't look at it....useless

Not necessarily useless.  Having lived in New England for 7 years and attended Ivy League, old Yankee Conference, and NESCAC (and its predecessor) games, I know that occassionally a team emerges that could hold its own in the playoffs.  Unfortunately, the Ivy League and NESCAC don't subscribe to the "playoff philosophy" so we never get to know just how good some of those teams are.  That Amherst is rated so high in the Massey ratings may seem like an aberration to some, but that's how it is ... for this point in the season at least.  I wonder if some might think having Amherst ranked so high somehow diminishes the accomplishments of UWW ... or any other of the D3 teams?

[AUKaz00]

I dont know, i dont quite get why Massey has Amherst at No.2.

That's why I don't look at it....useless

It's not just Amherst at #2, but 5 of the NESCAC schools in the top 20 that does it for me.

[jknezek]

That Amherst is rated so high in the Massey ratings may seem like an aberration to some, but that's how it is ... for this point in the season at least.  I wonder if some might think having Amherst ranked so high somehow diminishes the accomplishments of UWW ... or any other of the D3 teams?

It's not an aberration, it's just a flaw. There is no way to make any kind of objective measurement of these teams relative to the rest of the D3 universe. Not because they don't compete in the playoffs, which would probably include 1 team playing at most 1-3 games, but because the entire conference is a closed circuit. There are no non-conference games to judge the strength of the conference from top to bottom, therefore there is no actual data to use.

A very good example of this is the debate about Endicott, which is 7-0 but plays in a conference that is considered very weak. So while some people will give Endicott credit for winning in conference and against a weak out of conference schedule, others point to the fact that beating weak teams doesn't make you a good one. If we can't get consensus on this situation, how can you even begin to evaluate a team/conference with no exterior data?

Since it really doesn't matter, the best thing to do in my opinion is to ignore the NESCAC and just treat the Massey ratings as another computer system that can't adjust for Garbage In/Garbage Out. In comparison to the D3 universe, any stats that the NESCAC racks up against each other are island numbers, therefore they are garbage in.

[smedindy]

It's not useless at all. Just need to filter those out. If you want, use the ratings against the entire universe of football schools "group1" that do factor out the NESCAC. Besides, I look at it on relative strength. When I say "school X is 24th and Y is 31st" it doesn't matter if the NESCAC is in there or not - it's saying that there's a small gap between them, but data shows one team may be slightly better than the other.

Ignoring data points because of a flaw that can be filtered out is...well...a flaw in itself! Or so I've been told. 

We're at a point now where (except the NESCAC) enough games have been played and everyone can be related. Again I use Massey for one of my points at consideration - and it helps on some of the lesser-known schools and conferences to get a perspective. How good is Endicott? Well, I turn to Massey for a data point, and then look at the schedules of the league itself. Right now, I don't feel confident enough to put Endicott in my Top 25. Maybe after this week. But without the Massey data, I'd never really consider them, even if they were undefeated.

[Pat Coleman]

I dont know, i dont quite get why Massey has Amherst at No.2.

That's why I don't look at it....useless

What smed said -- these schools don't play anyone other than each other so just eliminate them and keep numbering.

[DBQ1965]

Good points made by jknezek, smedindy, and Pat.  Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

[Ron Boerger]

Someone tell Mr. Massey that DePauw's no longer in the SCAC. 

[smedindy]

If I recall, he puts his email on the website.