D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[bleedpurple]

I'm not a voter in the national fan poll, but vote in the north region poll.  Wabash beating NCC by 1 at home, on a very lucky carom of the 2-point conversion (see the intended Wabash receiver on the ground in agony thinking he cost them the game!), leaves me waiting for tomorrow's game in Alliance before deciding if I even move Wabash ahead of NCC, much less several slots ahead.

This is NOT meant to diss the LGs - they deserved the win on a remarkable comeback.  I thought NCC would win by 2-3 TDs - I was wrong (though I looked good for three quarters ).  IF Wabash wins tomorrow, I'll have them first, NCC second, and UMU third - a result I never could have imagined!  If UMU wins (as I predict), I'm gonna really agonize over #2.

Hard to rank the team that blew the lead over the team that made the head to head comeback, no?

[Mr. Ypsi]

I'm not a voter in the national fan poll, but vote in the north region poll.  Wabash beating NCC by 1 at home, on a very lucky carom of the 2-point conversion (see the intended Wabash receiver on the ground in agony thinking he cost them the game!), leaves me waiting for tomorrow's game in Alliance before deciding if I even move Wabash ahead of NCC, much less several slots ahead.

This is NOT meant to diss the LGs - they deserved the win on a remarkable comeback.  I thought NCC would win by 2-3 TDs - I was wrong (though I looked good for three quarters ).  IF Wabash wins tomorrow, I'll have them first, NCC second, and UMU third - a result I never could have imagined!  If UMU wins (as I predict), I'm gonna really agonize over #2.

Hard to rank the team that blew the lead over the team that made the head to head comeback, no?

Almost everyone but me had Wheaton ahead of IWU at the end, despite IWU beating Wheaton.

And even I will probably put Wheaton ahead of IWU in the final, so, no, having NCC ahead of Wabash would in no way be hypocritical.  I'm just not sure either way.  I still THINK NCC is probably better, and 1 point at home (on a lucky carom) is not compelling evidence the other way.  Anyone got a coin to flip?

[bashbrother]

North Central lost to Wabash head to head.  (period).....  Anyone voting for them ahead of Wabash, even in a fan poll, because of self-proclaimed luck, home field advantage, the pollen count was too high, etc. etc.   Is discrediting themselves.   North Central lost, it doesn't matter how or why, they had their chance and they lost.

Mount's defense played a full game with an exceptional game plan (coaching) and defeated Wabash 20-8.

[Mr. Ypsi]

North Central lost to Wabash head to head.  (period).....  Anyone voting for them ahead of Wabash, even in a fan poll, because of self-proclaimed luck, home field advantage, the pollen count was too high, etc. etc.   Is discrediting themselves.   North Central lost, it doesn't matter how or why, they had their chance and they lost.

Mount's defense played a full game with an exceptional game plan (coaching) and defeated Wabash 20-8.

My, my - you certainly see the world in black-and-white (or should I say 'scarlet').

A poll is not the same as standings.  Kean beat Wesley and remained behind them.  Redlands beat NCC and NCC quickly went back ahead of them.  IWU beat Wheaton and within two weeks most had Wheaton back ahead.  If Wabash had won by ten, or had won by one but in Naperville, we're not having this discussion.  But I fail to see how a one-point win AT HOME (and with a two-point conversion which was gutsy-as-hell but still can only be termed 'fluky') can be construed as compelling evidence of superiority.

[smedindy]

In a poll, where I rank teams on who I think would win more often than not, I do have teams that lost head-to-head above the teams that beat them.

I didn't have NC ahead of Wabash, mainly because while it may have been a 'fluke' Wabash was without Belton. Yes Burke performed miracles, but with Belton in they may not have had to have the miracle.

[Mr. Ypsi]

In a poll, where I rank teams on who I think would win more often than not, I do have teams that lost head-to-head above the teams that beat them.

I didn't have NC ahead of Wabash, mainly because while it may have been a 'fluke' Wabash was without Belton. Yes Burke performed miracles, but with Belton in they may not have had to have the miracle.

Good point, smed, and certainly a more convincing argument than "Wabash beat NCC .... (period)".

While Belton is presumably better than Burke in general (hence, he was the starter ), whether or not he would have been any better than Burke was THAT day (posters wanted to erect 'statutes' for him! ) is pure speculation.  As, of course, is my speculation that NCC, notwithstanding the head-to-head THAT day, is still the slightly better team.

If Wes Anderson will accept the ballot that way, I may put them as tied for 2nd in the North.

[K-Mack]

North Central lost to Wabash head to head.  (period).....  Anyone voting for them ahead of Wabash, even in a fan poll, because of self-proclaimed luck, home field advantage, the pollen count was too high, etc. etc.   Is discrediting themselves.   North Central lost, it doesn't matter how or why, they had their chance and they lost.

Mount's defense played a full game with an exceptional game plan (coaching) and defeated Wabash 20-8.

My, my - you certainly see the world in black-and-white (or should I say 'scarlet').

A poll is not the same as standings.  Kean beat Wesley and remained behind them.  Redlands beat NCC and NCC quickly went back ahead of them.  IWU beat Wheaton and within two weeks most had Wheaton back ahead.  If Wabash had won by ten, or had won by one but in Naperville, we're not having this discussion.  But I fail to see how a one-point win AT HOME (and with a two-point conversion which was gutsy-as-hell but still can only be termed 'fluky') can be construed as compelling evidence of superiority.

Interesting that when discussing the NESCAC, you need to have concrete, on-field evidence. But when you have a concrete, on-field h2h results, you don't mind being subjective.

Oh, I shouldn't have said anything. Let's not start that up again.

I like the "I rank teams I think would win more often than not" theory. I think, though, in some cases that line of thinking fails to see the forest for the trees. So I tend to go with bashbrother on this.

Every team that beats another team h2h isn't always better than that team just because it was on that day (see Kean's loss to Brockport State) but in the absence of overwhelming evidence to the contrary (see Kean's win over Wesley) I think you go with the team that won the h2h matchup.

I pick Kean for this demonstration because now there's enough evidence, with Wesley having beaten Salisbury and Kean losing to Salisbury, and then Wesley going to UHMB and winning, to say Wesley is a) Better than Kean over a full season b) better in Weeks 13-14 than it was in Week 2.

For most of the season though, in the absence of that evidence, I respected the Kean-Wesley h2h result. When we "know" something, it's awful ... hmm, presumptuous(?) ... to take your guess over that even though there are likely occurrences of me doing this very thing.

I think in the case of North Central and Redlands, my final ballot might end up respecting the h2h result even though at one point I was of the opinion that North Central might go into Alliance and win. The full package of evidence, is it convincing enough to ignore an h2h result, even if it was played after a long plane ride and all that jazz.

Obviously other people weight home field and other factors more than I do. In the end, I like to look at the entire body of work, and that means not ignoring what happened in h2h games early in the season.

We at least have to admit that polling is
1) highly fluid
2) highly subjective

[Mr. Ypsi]

Keith, you gotta post more often - I enjoy the discussions.

Nice try on the first two paragraphs, but I already explained why 'academic parity' of NESCAC and other elite schools and 'athletic parity' was a non sequitur.  NESCAC may or may not be equivalent, but you gotta do better than that!

As to the rest of your post, is a one-point win AT home (on a 2-point conversion that any neutral observer has to consider 'lucky' or 'fluky' - look at the intended receiver, on his knees in anguish thinking he just cost the LGs the game) really a compelling h-to-h result?  As I already posted, if Wabash won by ten, or even if they had this result in Naperville, the discussion would not be happening.  We can all disagree on how much home field is worth, but surely you do not think it is worth NOTHING.

Out of pure cussedness, I have decided to cast my North Region ballot as NCC 2, Wabash 3.  I have little doubt that I will be outvoted (and probably reviled), but there it is.

(And as an IWU fan, I despise NCC! )

[smedindy]

Ypsi,

But I'd never vote for DPU over Wabash^*. Not that it'll be a factor anytime soon.

*unless 1000% warranted

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ypsi,

But I'd never vote for DPU over Wabash^*. Not that it'll be a factor anytime soon.

*unless 1000% warranted

Good point!

Back in my day, Millikin might have been hated at least 20% as much as you hate DePauw, but I'm not sure any of IWU's rivalries today are within 95% of yours! 

When I say 'despise', it is just conference banter, but we're like brothers: we 'hate' each other, but woe unto the outsider who picks on my brother!  From following nearly all the boards, I'm starting to wonder if the CCIW might be the most 'collegial' conference in the country?!

Or maybe I'm just getting old and mellow.

[bashbrother]

Using a early season examples mean much less than a playoff game in which your life is on the line... is a completely different story when a team is playing for their life in the playoffs.   NC got a chance and lost...

Should we say any team that loses a game to anyone else is better than the team they lost to?.........  While your at it, rank North Central in front of Mount.  Why not.   They didn't even have the chance at h2h..... so thus, it would become even more subjective.

Vote for NCC for President, I don't care, just save your "not trying to dis Wabash in anyway" garbage.......   you either give them respect or you don't.  Speaking of glasses, what color are your (CCIW glasses).  You may need a better prescription.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I don't know about Mellow... but Old... yes...

Using a early season examples mean much less than a playoff game in which your life is on the line... is a completely different story when a team is playing for their life.   NC got a chance and lost...

Should we say any team that loses a game to anyone else is better than the other.........  While your at it, rank North Central in front of Mount.  Why not.   They didn't even have the chance at h2h..... so thus, it would become even more subjective.

Vote for NCC for President, I don't care, just save your not trying to dis Wabash in anyway garbage.......   you either give them respect or you don't.  Speaking of glasses, what color are your (CCIW glasses).  You may need a better prescription.

I've already seen your pathetic attempts at intelligent debate; I won't bother with your NCC/UMU (or NCC for President) whines.

I have great respect for Wabash.  For some of their posters, not so much.

[bleedpurple]

D3 TOP 25 FAN POLL SEMI-FINAL WEEK


1. UW-Whitewater (5)              125         1 (LW)
2. Mount Union                         120         2
3. St. Thomas                           113         3(T)
4. Wesley                                 112         5
5. UMHB                                   105         3(T)
6. Wabash                                   94         6
7. North Central                           91         9
8. Salisbury                                 90         8
9. Linfield                                    88         7
10. St. John Fisher                      75         10
11. (t) Delaware Valley               65         11
      (t) McMurry                          65         12
13. Kean                                     61        14
14. California Lutheran                55        13
15. Franklin                                48        18
16. (t) Monmouth                       41        15
      (t) Bethel                             41         16
18. Centre                                  34         19
19. Wheaton                               29         17           
20. Johns Hopkins                       28         22
21. Trinity                                   27         20
22. Illinois Wesleyan                   24          21
23. (t) Redlands                          18          23
      (t)Cortland State                   18          24
25. Hobart                                   17         Unranked

Dropped Out of Top 25: Montclair State

Also Receiving Votes:  Montclair State (13), Dubuque (9), Wisconsin-Oshkosh (9), Baldwin-Wallace (8), Thomas More (7), Amherst (1)

[CruFrenzy]

Are either of the semifinal games going to be on espn? That's what i had heard earlier in the season.

[WashedUp]

Are either of the semifinal games going to be on espn? That's what i had heard earlier in the season.

They're both on ESPN3.