D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[Pat Coleman]

I agree that Louisiana College had less than a 50% chance of winning that game if Dunn stayed on the sidelines. They still have to get the play off and convert.

I am sure that last year, UMHB would simply have never picked someone up when TLU left the ASC. Not much of a devil's advocate there as all UMHB would have to do is show up to play in Week 5 as it was originally scheduled by the ASC office.

[smedindy]

Any team wanting to 'prove' itself from a less-than-stellar conference has to knock off a known quantity and win in the playoffs, and then sustain it. There's just a lot of good teams clustered in some conferences. I mean, the MIAC (for example) has five teams that probably should be getting votes on many ballots. Five out of 25 spots! The one that's not really garnering much support now is Gustavus, who is like TLU in that they're not traditionally good and voters will be in 'show me' mode until they play the big boys in the MIAC.

[Tekken]

Point taken, Pat.

And I agree, you have to beat someone to be considered, but that brings me all the way back to my original question.  If the only "known quantity" within 600 miles truly is UMHB (because they have beaten everyone else), is there really a chance at making a statement without being one of the "super elite" teams in all of division III?  I think we would all agree that competing with UMHB and some of these other schools competing with anyone ranked 6 - 25 are two entirely different undertakings.

[smedindy]

It's tough but TLU may have to go travel. Many in the SCIAC or NWC schedule outside of the West Coast. I may look there. Playing teams like Redland or Pacific Lutheran can help. You could also test yourself against Wesley, perhaps. They're ALWAYS up for a game, though again it's a long way and they're in the UMHB class. Maybe a Wisconsin school (not Whitewater - Oshkosh, or Platteville, or Stevens Point) could be a good test.

Some other teams are getting frisky in scheduling as well.

[wally_wabash]

Again, I agree this would do it.  But if this is the only other option, you are back to square one.  Without playing UMHB tight (something anyone ranked outside the big 4/5 almost never do), you can't get into the playoffs.  And if you can't get into the playoffs, you are back at your only chance getting in being in essence a top 5 team nationally by competing with UMHB.  Catch 22.

This isn't quite correct.  Last year, when TLU didn't have to take the UMHB bullet, they were so in right up until they let Simmons hang a 70 burger on them.  Don't lose that game, and TLU gets a chance to play in the playoffs.  Probably against UMHB, but in the tournament in any case.  TLU's path to the tournament is the same as everybody else's- don't lose. 

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

2014 WEEK 6 TOP 25 FAN POLL

Rank         Team                     Points    Prev
  1)   UW-Whitewater (10)    250      1
T2)   Mary Hardin-Baylor    234     T2
T2)   Mount Union           234     T2
  4)   Wesley                217      4
  5)   Linfield              214      5
  6)   Wartburg              193      6
  7)   John Carroll          180      7
  8)   Wabash                179      8
  9)   Hobart                164      9
10)   Johns Hopkins         157     10
11)   Bethel                143     11
12)   North Central         133     12
13)   St John Fisher        115    T13
14)   UW Platteville        110    T13
T15)   UW-Stevens Point       98     16
T15)   Wittenberg             98    T13
17)   Pacific Lutheran       78     19
18)   Wheaton                77     17
19)   Widener                66     20
20)   St Thomas              51     21
21)   Washington & Jefferson 48     23
22)   St John's              41     24
23)   Concordia-Moorhead     39     NR
T24)   Delaware Valley        36     NR
T24)   Hampden-Sydney         36     25

Dropped Out: Ithaca and Lycoming

Also Receiving Votes: Heidelberg (15), Texas Lutheran (13), Chapman (12), Buffalo St (4), Centre (4), Ithaca (4), Emory & Henry (3), DePauw (2), Gustavus Adolphus (2)

Voters: 02 Warhawk, D3MAFAN-MG, desertcat1, FCGrizzliesGrad, HSCTiger74, Mr. Ypsi, NCF, smedindy, thewaterboy, and Upstate

[D3MAFAN]

I guess we are going to have the head scratcher debate again how teams that beat this team is ranked higher than that team...

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

  1)   UW-Whitewater        250      ( 1,  1,  1,  1,  1,  1,  1,  1,  1,  1)
T2)   Mary Hardin-Baylor   234      ( 2,  2,  2,  2,  2,  3,  3,  3,  3,  4)
T3)   Mount Union          234      ( 2,  2,  2,  2,  2,  3,  3,  3,  3,  4)
  4)   Wesley               217      ( 3,  4,  4,  4,  4,  4,  5,  5,  5,  5)
  5)   Linfield             214      ( 3,  4,  4,  4,  5,  5,  5,  5,  5,  6)
  6)   Wartburg             193      ( 5,  6,  6,  6,  6,  7,  7,  7,  8,  9)
  7)   John Carroll         180      ( 6,  6,  6,  7,  7,  8,  8,  8, 10, 14)
  8)   Wabash               179      ( 6,  6,  7,  7,  8,  8,  9,  9,  9, 12)
  9)   Hobart               164      ( 7,  8,  8,  9,  9,  9,  9, 11, 12, 14)
10)   Johns Hopkins        157      ( 7,  7,  8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 13, 17)
11)   Bethel               143      ( 8, 10, 10, 11, 11, 12, 12, 13, 15, 15)
12)   North Central        133      ( 9,  9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 14, 14, 15, 16)
13)   St John Fisher       115      (12, 12, 13, 13, 14, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
14)   UW Platteville       110      (11, 12, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 21)
T15)   UW-Stevens Point      98      (12, 13, 14, 15, 15, 17, 18, 18, 19, 21)
T15)   Wittenberg            98      (10, 11, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 18, --, --)
17)   Pacific Lutheran      78      (10, 11, 13, 14, 17, 18, 21, --, --, --)
18)   Wheaton               77      (10, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 23)
19)   Widener               66      (11, 17, 18, 18, 19, 20, 21, 23, 23, 24)
20)   St Thomas             51      (12, 18, 19, 19, 21, 22, 22, 24, --, --)
21)   Wash & Jeff           48      (17, 18, 18, 20, 21, 22, 22, 23, 23, --)
22)   St John's             41      (18, 19, 19, 20, 21, 22, 22, --, --, --)
23)   Concordia-Moorhead    39      (17, 18, 20, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, --, --)
T24)   Delaware Valley       36      (13, 20, 20, 21, 23, 24, 25, --, --, --)
T24)   Hampden-Sydney        36      (15, 19, 19, 20, 23, 24, --, --, --, --)

26)   Heidelberg            15      (16, 21)
27)   Texas Lutheran        13      (17, 24, 25, 25)
28)   Chapman               12      (20, 22, 24)
T29)   Buffalo St             4      (25, 25, 25, 25)
T29)   Centre                 4      (22)
T29)   Ithaca                 4      (24, 25, 25)
32)   Emory & Henry          3      (23)
T33)   DePauw                 2      (24)
T33)   Gustavus Adolphus      2      (24)

[02 Warhawk]

I guess we are going to have the head scratcher debate again how teams that beat this team is ranked higher than that team...

I guess there's some that still think very highly of St. Thomas.

[desertcat1]

I guess we are going to have the head scratcher debate again how teams that beat this team is ranked higher than that team...

I guess there's some that still think very highly of St. Thomas.

  Like to know who is so proud of them(ST TOM) and why ? ???At 12   would be nice ? 
  Still no respect by three for WEST COAST PLU?

[ExTartanPlayer]

Like to know who is so proud of them(ST TOM) and why ? ???At 12   would be nice ? 
Still no respect by three for WEST COAST PLU?

On one hand, I vaguely-sort-of-get-this.  Beyond Mount, UWW, UMHB, and Wesley, I think UST's run of excellence from 2009-2012 (11-2, 12-1, 13-1, 14-1) probably earned them a little bit of benefit of the doubt entering this season.  Sort of the way everyone knew that UWW should probably be ranked in 2013 even after "only" going 7-3 in 2012.  I'd have been fine with ranking UST in the top ten entering the season, even if they didn't make the playoffs last year, because that four-year run is something that only the D3 giants can match.

But that residual goodwill should have gone out the window with the second straight loss to the Johnnies.  Not that they have to be discarded from the rankings entirely, but ranking them ahead of St. John's when SJU has an equivalent resume this year and has now beaten the Tommies two years in a row is pretty inexplicable.  That's just completely deciding which results to count and which ones not to based on what you think about a team in the preseason.

[smedindy]

EXTP -

Don't assume the thought process of voters. The MIAC is such a knot and so even that the best team may NOT win on a given Saturday! Give people some credit and relax the rigidity!

NOTE: I'm not voting St Thomas that high...

[d-train]

  Like to know who is so proud of them(ST TOM) and why ? ???At 12   would be nice ? 
  Still no respect by three for WEST COAST PLU?

I'm not voting here, but I don't think I'd have PLU above #20 right now.  If they look better and run the table on rest of the NWC (beside Linfield obviously), maybe back up around #15 in Nov.

NOTE: I'm not voting St Thomas that high...

It's just one voter.  Around 19-22 is about right.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

I guess we are going to have the head scratcher debate again how teams that beat this team is ranked higher than that team...

I guess there's some that still think very highly of St. Thomas.

Like to know who is so proud of them(ST TOM) and why ? ???At 12   would be nice ? 
  Still no respect by three for WEST COAST PLU?

I'm one of the three who don't have PLU in... but to me they're not even the 2nd best team on the west coast. I think Chapman should be higher ranked than PLU. I'm surprised that so many have Pac Lutheran ranked but don't have Chapman on their ballot. Chapman's wins are against teams that are 6-8 while PLU's are against 2-13 teams. Then there's the Linfield game... both lost at home to Linfield but Chapman lost by just 7 while PLU lost by 27.

And on the St Thomas issue... I also don't have them on my ballot either.

[ExTartanPlayer]

EXTP -

Don't assume the thought process of voters. The MIAC is such a knot and so even that the best team may NOT win on a given Saturday! Give people some credit and relax the rigidity!

NOTE: I'm not voting St Thomas that high...

Oh, I know, you have that rule that "rivalry games" count differently from others in the standings.  Or something.

Look, smed, I get that rivalry games have amped-up intensity and that funny things happen.  I had played in conference games in back-to-back seasons where an eventual conference champion en route to an undefeated season barely survived an overtime game against a conference rival that finished the season with four losses (I was on the right side of that in 2006, against WashU and the wrong side of it in 2007, against Case Western).  Really.  I understand.

It's still ridiculous to look at St. Thomas, who has the same record as St. John's, has lost to St. John's two years in a row, and has a handy common opponent this year (St. John's 31, UWEC 7 vs. St. Thomas 22, UWEC 17 in consecutive weeks; St. Thomas' game was at home, St. John's was on the road), and decide "Nah, it was a rivaly game, I still think St. Thomas is better."