D3 Top 25 Fan Poll

[HOPEful]

The SEC wins national championships, the WIAC hasn't won one in 8 years.  And the two games Platteville lost by 40 were both D3 schools.  So give me more reasons why they deserve to 25.

The Stagg goes thru the WIAC. No other "conference" (not a single team, e.g., NCC, UMHB, UMU and the Tommies are gone) has the same dominance. The WIAC has had a team, either UWW or UWO, in the semifinals every year since 2005. Maybe the CCIW would be second with Wheaton.

I'd say the American Southwest is stacked, perhaps even to the same level as the WIAC. They just get the geographical short stick come playoff time. Wish we could see a bracket that didn't pit the best teams in Texas/Southwest against each other the first two rounds.

If we're comparing The WIAC, CCIW, and ASW, I think Hardin Simmons and Howard Payne stand up pretty well against Wheaton and Wash U. I'd even argue they stand up to River Falls and La Crosse, but no one has the depth of the WIAC. The next two teams in the CCIW and ASW are not at the same level as Platteville and OshKosh.

I think the fact that year after year the depth of the CCIW is what it is just magnifies how ridiculous it is what Whitewater has been able to achieve over the last 2 decades.

[BSCpanthers]

The WIAC should have won more than they have in the last 8 years.  Public schools without the same financial situation as the 97% of DIII, since they are all private, as well as enrollment that is 5x's that of most DIII schools.

But the results don't agree.   Since 1973, the WIAC makes up 8 championships, 2 by La Crosse, the rest by Whitewater.  The SEC has won 11 in the last 29 years, by 5 different schools.  That is conference domination, not 1 team 8 years ago. 

[hazzben]

The WIAC should have won more than they have in the last 8 years.  Public schools without the same financial situation as the 97% of DIII, since they are all private, as well as enrollment that is 5x's that of most DIII schools.

But the results don't agree. Since 1973, the WIAC makes up 8 championships, 2 by La Crosse, the rest by Whitewater.  The SEC has won 11 in the last 29 years, by 5 different schools.  That is conference domination, not 1 team 8 years ago.

First, this isn't an apples to apples argument.

But the WIAC also has NAIA National Titles as well. The major difference here being, WIAC teams have had to run through a genuine playoff system. How many national titles does the WIAC have if they were given 2 of the 4 slots in a playoff? Or 2 of 2 in a rematch of, say UWO and UWW? Or if all the teams in the vaunted WIAC didn't actually all play each other (protecting their records and preventing canablization) and played non-con games against the UMAC, and played 1 less conference game than the other top conferences? Or if D3football.com's financial fortune was tied to continually propping up the WIAC as the greatest conference, giving the teams extra exposure on TV, centering ATN Podcast around the WIAC's greatness every week, and D3football.com also had undo influence on which teams got selected for a tiny "playoff"? Shall we go on ... 

Put a 12 or 16 team playoff in place for the last 29 years like D3 has, where every conference champ gets access, and there are limited at large bids, and I'd bet the results of the SEC's national titles looks a little different.

[BSCpanthers]

The WIAC should have won more than they have in the last 8 years.  Public schools without the same financial situation as the 97% of DIII, since they are all private, as well as enrollment that is 5x's that of most DIII schools.

But the results don't agree. Since 1973, the WIAC makes up 8 championships, 2 by La Crosse, the rest by Whitewater.  The SEC has won 11 in the last 29 years, by 5 different schools.  That is conference domination, not 1 team 8 years ago.

First, this isn't an apples to apples argument.

But the WIAC also has NAIA National Titles as well. The major difference here being, WIAC teams have had to run through a genuine playoff system. How many national titles does the WIAC have if they were given 2 of the 4 slots in a playoff? Or 2 of 2 in a rematch of, say UWO and UWW? Or if all the teams in the vaunted WIAC didn't actually all play each other (protecting their records and preventing canablization) and played non-con games against the UMAC, and played 1 less conference game than the other top conferences? Or if D3football.com's financial fortune was tied to continually propping up the WIAC as the greatest conference, giving the teams extra exposure on TV, centering ATN Podcast around the WIAC's greatness every week, and D3football.com also had undo influence on which teams got selected for a tiny "playoff"? Shall we go on ... 

Put a 12 or 16 team playoff in place for the last 29 years like D3 has, where every conference champ gets access, and there are limited at large bids, and I'd bet the results of the SEC's national titles looks a little different.

That argument is one I can agree with.  The fact still remains that the WIAC hasn't won one in 8 years, and a 3 loss team that has 2 losses by 40 doesn't belong in the top 25 over some other teams.  They also lost to a not good DII school. 

[HOPEful]

I agree with Hazzben, it's not apples to apples. I also think it's unfair to mitigate the success of the WIAC based on the fact that the schools are public and large universities. The point is valid that there is a competitive advantage based on size and $. Across all sports, I think arguing their success should be greater based on that advantage is crazy, but if you feel that way, I'd entertain the debate. But none of that really has anything to do with how one should assess Platteville or OshKosh this season.

1. Michigan Tech is a D2 school. So is Northern Michigan. Saying that Platteville and OshKosh are 3 loss teams is deceptive and holding a loss against at D2 school against a D3 team is not fair IMO. I wouldn't hold it against Mount Union, MHB, or North Central either.

2. The better question then is... for Platteville, how to I weigh wins against Bethel, Whitewater, and River Falls against two bad losses against OshKosh and Hardin Simmons. To me, the bottom of the top 25 seems totally fair. As an MIAA fan, in a head to head matchup, I would objectively take either over #20 Albion, who barely got by Eau Claire.

[HOPEful]

Personally, I want to see good teams schedule each other in non-conference games. The only way to see more of it is to incentivize it. By that logic, I will always weigh good/great wins above losses to good teams. To me, a team capable of beating a top 10 team is more deserving of being ranked than a team that's undefeated but hasn't played anyone in the top 25.

[BSCpanthers]

I'll concede to the DII losses, it's hard to impossible to gauge when playing a scholarship program. 

In DIII, with so many teams, and ultimately, so many bad teams, there are a lot of teams that end the season 10-0 and 9-1 that might play 3 teams with a winning record.  I do enjoy the big OOC games, helps get a better idea of how good the conferences are.  We play instate Huntingdon every year and they are a consistent USAC champ.  Would love to see DIII add an 11th game for more OOC games, with most conferences playing a round robin type schedule, it leaves so few available games for OOC.  Would also like to see some later season OOC games. 

[Cowboy2]

I'll concede to the DII losses, it's hard to impossible to gauge when playing a scholarship program. 

In DIII, with so many teams, and ultimately, so many bad teams, there are a lot of teams that end the season 10-0 and 9-1 that might play 3 teams with a winning record.  I do enjoy the big OOC games, helps get a better idea of how good the conferences are.  We play instate Huntingdon every year and they are a consistent USAC champ.  Would love to see DIII add an 11th game for more OOC games, with most conferences playing a round robin type schedule, it leaves so few available games for OOC.  Would also like to see some later season OOC games.

I think the vast majority of D3 teams do not care to play another game unless it's for playoffs or some sort of regional post season bowl between #2 or #3 programs that didn't make it into the playoffs. That is also added costs that most programs don't have funding for. It wouldn't necessarily mean more high profile OOC matchups...it would probably turn in to who is closest and available for budget needs.

Teams that have no OOC schedule know if they win their league they are in. It's more so a product of a lot of good teams fighting for one of the remaining coveted spots that didn't win their league. With D3 being so large, there are only so many seats at the table. Last year BSC beat huntingdon. This year they didn't. They have two very close losses and they will probably be in the discussion as will a Wheaton or UW team on the bubble. It's hard to gauge on who beat who when everyone has beaten one another in some form or fashion this year. The ASC and SAA have recently shown to have deeper conferences which will help BSCs cause. As do a lot of the Northeast teams that are not being discussed with all the WIAC turmoil.

I know you mentioned the "what have WIAC teams done lately," but part of the process is what did a team so last year when determining muddy water playoff fielding. At the end of the day if you win your league you're guaranteed a spot. The problem isn't that a team makes the playoffs is undeserving, a team who won their league deserves to be in it. Some conferences are SOS wise stronger. All of this will be taken into consideration by the RR committees. Polls are fun, but top 25 doesn't determine who gets in or not. Should the panthers win out, and other teams continue to beat each other, or an unlikely upset happens, y'all may sneak in.  However, adding an 11th game would only be beneficial if it was against another team on the bubble of pool C to be a mini playoff or wild card type game....not so much nation wide. Money isn't there nor the time for another game with a 5 week playoff schedule.

[HOPEful]

In DIII, with so many teams, and ultimately, so many bad teams, there are a lot of teams that end the season 10-0 and 9-1 that might play 3 teams with a winning record.  I do enjoy the big OOC games, helps get a better idea of how good the conferences are...

For sure. Geography just makes it so hard. It's impossible NOT to have a perceived "regional bias" when being from anywhere other than the Midwest is a disadvantage. If the WIAC is the SEC, then the CCIW is the Big10. And the OAC is the ACC, with Mount being Clemson.

My mind wants to think that adding more Pool C teams would help, but it still wouldn't fix the geographic issues. What do you do with an undefeated Endicott team? How do you rate 3 loss WIAC teams against them, when all three losses were against teams objectively much better than any team Endicott has played this season. Albion has the same issue, and they don't have the excuse of not being close enough to better teams. Even if the ASW #2 had an easier pathway to getting in, it would almost certainly be to play the SAA #1, with a second-round matchup against the ASW #1 looming for either one. At large Midwest teams have a better opportunity to prove themselves when there are options to put them up against beyond Mary Hardin Baylor, Trinity, or Linfield. 

[smedindy]

I'll concede to the DII losses, it's hard to impossible to gauge when playing a scholarship program. 

In DIII, with so many teams, and ultimately, so many bad teams, there are a lot of teams that end the season 10-0 and 9-1 that might play 3 teams with a winning record.  I do enjoy the big OOC games, helps get a better idea of how good the conferences are.  We play instate Huntingdon every year and they are a consistent USAC champ.  Would love to see DIII add an 11th game for more OOC games, with most conferences playing a round robin type schedule, it leaves so few available games for OOC.  Would also like to see some later season OOC games.

There are some that only play 9 games by choice. 11 with a 32-team playoff is too many.

[smedindy]

The WIAC should have won more than they have in the last 8 years.  Public schools without the same financial situation as the 97% of DIII, since they are all private, as well as enrollment that is 5x's that of most DIII schools.

But the results don't agree.   Since 1973, the WIAC makes up 8 championships, 2 by La Crosse, the rest by Whitewater.  The SEC has won 11 in the last 29 years, by 5 different schools.  That is conference domination, not 1 team 8 years ago.

By your logic, the MASCAC, NJAC, and the SUNY schools should also have domination because of large enrollment state schools.

[Captainred81]

1.  The WIAC is the best.  No question.  It may not have always been, but it is now. 
2.  This years WIAC champ may not be a top 5 team.  Just sayin'.  Between Mount, NCC, UMHB, St. Johns, Linfield...It's hard top say that UWW would be beat UMHB again, or St. Johns if they played again. 
3.  Teams like North Central and Mount Union schedule the best they can for their OOC game (I have examples).  Just because their conference is weaker than the WIAC, ASC, MIAC, does not mean that they aren't the best team in country, as evidenced by them winning National titles. 
4.  This is (IMHO) going down as the most competitive and greatest D3 season ever.  I truly think that that the top 10-11 is very close to equal. 
5.  I just want to say it.  St' Johns beat UWW, UWW beat UMHB, UMHB beat hardin simmons, hardin simmons beat UWP, UWP beat Bethel and UWW, Bethel beat St. Johns, Oshkosh Beat UWP, UWW beat Oshkosh... How in the world do you rank that?

[bluestreak66]

1.  The WIAC is the best.  No question.  It may not have always been, but it is now. 
2.  This years WIAC champ may not be a top 5 team.  Just sayin'.  Between Mount, NCC, UMHB, St. Johns, Linfield...It's hard top say that UWW would be beat UMHB again, or St. Johns if they played again. 
3.  Teams like North Central and Mount Union schedule the best they can for their OOC game (I have examples).  Just because their conference is weaker than the WIAC, ASC, MIAC, does not mean that they aren't the best team in country, as evidenced by them winning National titles. 
4.  This is (IMHO) going down as the most competitive and greatest D3 season ever.  I truly think that that the top 10-11 is very close to equal. 
5.  I just want to say it.  St' Johns beat UWW, UWW beat UMHB, UMHB beat hardin simmons, hardin simmons beat UWP, UWP beat Bethel and UWW, Bethel beat St. Johns, Oshkosh Beat UWP, UWW beat Oshkosh... How in the world do you rank that?

Absolutely. I strongly believe that their strength isn't that their top teams are the best in the division (though they usually are close), its that top to bottom, no one can compete with the shear depth of the conference.
they currently have 5 ranked teams, and I think Stout could give a game to most top 25 teams. Even Eau Claire and Stevens Point, who are also-rans in the WIAC, I believe are legitimately in the top half of the division. Heck, Eau Claire came pretty close to beating Albion, who is the top of a pretty decent conference.
If you look at the dreads of other top conferences (North Park, Macalaster, Capital, MacMurry, ect.), I strongly believe either Stevens Point or Eau Claire would beat them by at least 3-4 scores

[hazzben]

Yeah the WIAC is very good at the top (sometimes elite) and just much deeper than any other conference, by a long shot. The top 2-3 from MIAC, ASC, CCIW could all hang in the WIAC. But the 4th or 5th place team in the WIAC could win or nearly win a conference title in all but the top handful of leagues. Or be capable of winning a game or two in the playoffs. That depth is very unique and makes the conference an absolute grind.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

Everyone was quicker getting their ballots in so you get an earlier poll


2022 WEEK 8 TOP 25 FAN POLL

Rank	Team	W-L	Points	Prev
1)	North Central (5)	7-0	197	1
T2)	Mary Hardin-Baylor (2)	7-1	184	T3
T2)	Mount Union (1)	7-0	184	T3
4)	Linfield	6-0	169	5
5)	Trinity (TX)	7-0	163	6
6)	St John's	6-1	161	7
7)	Johns Hopkins	7-0	148	8
8)	Hardin-Simmons	6-1	127	11
9)	Bethel	6-1	126	10
10)	UW-La Crosse	6-1	122	9
11)	Cortland	7-0	117	12
12)	UW-Whitewater	5-2	108	2
13)	Delaware Valley	8-0	103	13
14)	Ithaca	7-0	101	15
15)	Wheaton	5-2	89	14
16)	Wartburg	7-0	88	16
17)	Carnegie Mellon	8-0	74	T17
18)	Randolph-Macon	7-0	71	T17
19)	Susquehanna	7-0	50	19
20)	Albion	7-0	49	20
21)	Huntingdon	6-1	46	22
22)	UW-River Falls	5-2	29	21
T23)	John Carroll	6-1	23	25
T23)	UW-Platteville	4-3	23	NR
25)	UW-Oshkosh	4-3	20	23

Dropped Out: #24 Washington U

Also Receiving Votes: Endicott 7, Washington & Jefferson 5, Mount St Joseph 4, Birmingham-Southern 3, Monmouth 3, George Fox 2, Ripon 2, Salisbury 1, Trinity (CT) 1

Voters: 02 Warhawk, Captainred81, desertcat1, FCGG, HOPEful, MRMIKESMITH, NCF, and smedindy