WBB: Empire 8

[Bombers798891]

I often read these message boards and find myself amused by the critical analysis of people who spend their lives doing things other than coaching.  Level and Sotier, how many games have you really watched in the state of NY.  To say that this is a down year in Upstate NY as well as your league, (the Empire 8), and that Utica is only in the discussion " only because of the play of Jess Berry " is absurd at best.  There are a lot of great teams in Upstate NY.  First, Coach Davis is an outstanding coach and has done a great job making Utica a title contender each year.  In terms of Berry, she is a great talent and perhaps the best player in the league, but with out the play of Devin Croll each night she may not even touch the ball.  Croll might be the most underrated player in that league.  Berry is an all-conference, all-region, and potentially all-american forward, but with out a great guard like Croll, she may not even touch the ball.

Furthermore, to say that there are only three class teams in the region is to diminish the job that so many fine coaches have done, but why should that surprise me.  You have both spent far too much time posting on this board ripping, judging, and evaluating coaches and teams. Neither one of you has ever held the clip board on a collegiate sideline, and neither one of you has any comprehension as to what it takes to build a college program.  I'm not saying that I possess that comprehension either, but I'm also not spending my time on this site ripping coaches and players.  Instead, I will continue to watch, support, and cheer for my favorite upstate team and appreciate the fact that my daughter gets to do something that thousands of other kids don't get to do:  Wear a college basketball jersey.  

I suggest you both do some reevalutaing and take the creed of this site's founder and "discuss sports in a positive manner".  I'm sure that my post will be met with ridicule and scorn, but I don't care.  Besides, what else could I expect out of a cow farmer from Cooperstown, NY and an insurance salesman from Elmira,NY!

Costanza,

While I won't take issue with the coaching debate, I will take issue with this: This is a down year in the East/Empire 8 for women.

Want proof the East Region is down? Look at the regional rankings

The top Atlantic region team is #2 in the Top 25 poll
The top Central region team is #3
The Top Great Lakes region team is #4
The Top mid-Atlantic region team is #18
The Top Northeast region team is #1
The top South region team is #12
The top West region team is #5
The top East region team is unranked (or 32nd). The highest-ranked East Region team is 30th

What does that tell you?

The Bombers are 20-4 (With a loss to D-1AA Cornell and #2 Kean), have won 15 in a row are top ranked in the East Region and they're not even sniffing the Top 25.

Utica is 6th in the East Region as of the recent regional rankings and I think while right now, they would get in as an at-large team, some upsets in conference play and another loss on their parts might make it a dicey proposition.

No-one else in the conference would even merit consideration for the NCAA's as an at-large bid team right now. Stevens? Maybe, if they ran the table till the finals of the E8 tournament, but even then, they're 18-9 and that got Ithaca left out of the Tournament last season. And then of course, that would hurt Utica's chances

There's a difference between being negative and being realistic. We can debate what qualifies as "good" or "class" all day long, but looking at how the teams are ranked provides a clue.

In general however, your impassioned defense of coaches is nice, and yeah, I'm sure the coaches in charge of all the E8 programs know more about coaching than most of us on the boards put together. But there are plenty of hard-working, intelligent coaches and players out there. And they don't all represent great teams. Yes, this is D-III sports, and there's, in many ways less of an emphasis on winning then there may be at a D-1 school on an institutional level. But there's nothing that says we can't judge a team by wins and losses and rankings. If people are frustrated about a team's lack of success, there's nothing wrong with being critical.

"Discussion" of sports can include reasonable, fact-based criticism of teams/players.

[Bombers798891]

And I say that of my previous post in the general sense. I have no clue about the inner-workings of Elmira women's basketball and why they're struggling and whether the criticism is unfair/unfounded.

All I know about Elmira is that three years ago, theywas 21-5 heading into a E8 title game at home. Now, they are likely to finish 4-21. That would be a disappointing turnaround, and fans are allowed to be frustrated by that.

I'd also say that, since Jessica Berry is responsible for about 33% of Utica's scoring, 25% of its rebounding, 25% of its steals and half of its blocks, led them in scoring 17 of their 23 games and rebounds in 14 of their 23 that yeah, it's fair to say Utica wouldn't be where they were without her. She's their best player. Is she their only good player? No. But take her away and Utica's not 18-5.

Just like the Bombers aren't 20-4 without Bixby. Again, there's a difference between being negative and accepting reality

[Costanza]

Bombers,

I absolutely appreciate your response and statistical analysis of the different regions.  That is an argument that makes sense!  I also do agree that it is okay to be critical of a team; however, when all you do is negatively critique teams in a particular region or coaches in a particular region then you get a reputation as a bit of a whiner. 

Having said that, and having looked over your posts through time, it should be noted that your posts are usually posititve and ballanced.  By no means was I critiquing your recent or past posts.  I also have no idea as to the inner workings of Elmira College athletics either , and I don't know if their coach is good or not.  I've seen four elmira games in the past two years and the teams always seem to compete hard.

With regard to Utica and Jess Berry.  I actually believe that Berry is the best player in the Emire 8.  My only feeling was that it takes more than that to win.  Who broght Berry to Utica?  Who has designed a system to showcase her talents?  Who has put players around that star to make her even better?  Additionally, how about the players around her?  They accept and appreciate her.  They want her to be great.  They want to win.  Simply put, no one person wins or loses a game.  Everyone has a hand in it at the end of the day.  You need head coaches, assistant coaches, role players, star players, etc.  I've seen a lot of teams with a singular star player go no where because everyone wasnt' on the same page.

Your Bombers are a great example of a team with a star, great coaching, a great supporting staff and a team with everyone on the same page.  While Bixby is an absolute stud, where would Ithaca be without Coach Raymond, the assistant coaches who work so hard to continue to build a quality program?  Where would they be without Brown or Klie?  Finally, where would they be without an athletic administration that clearly cares about winning?  In my humble oppinion there's a lot of hands contributing to that success and all too ofter we as fans find ourselves complaining about one person or one aspect instead of appreciating all of the efforts being put forth.

As for Ithaca in the region and national picture, I wouldn't be surprised if they make a run in the NCAA tournament.  as you noted they lost to the #2 team in the country by 13 points, (by no means a blow out), on their home court in November.  I will be excited to see how they fair in the big dance. 

Finally, I appreciate the freindly and positive debate that your provided and the statistical support to back it up.  I look forward to many more discussions.

[Bombers798891]

I think you're right that it takes more than Jess Berry to win, and yes, coaches put in a system that takes advantage of players.

But I still believe the comment that Utica wouldn't be where they were without her was fair. Certain teams have certain players they just can't do without. Some teams are more balanced than others and could survive better sans their best player. Ithaca could probably survive without Bixby better than Utica could survive without Berry.

Ultimately, there's a line to draw when it comes to complaining about coaches, but I think a lot of us, at this level criticize the coaches and not the players. Whether that's fair or not is a whole other debate, but it's part of the job. We can judge whether or not the EC talk crossed a line on our own. I respect your opinion about that.

I guess the problem I had with your original post was the attitude of--and I'm paraphrasing-- "Well, you guys aren't coaches, so who are you to criticize?" While I agree that casual fans don't have the knowledge of a D-III coach, that's an idea I've never been on board with.

I'm not a cook, but I know what a burnt steak tastes like. I'm not an actor, but I can tell the difference between good acting and bad acting. Everyone does it, but yet in athletics, athletes and coaches especially tend to take exception to it. Do we tell people that they can't say "I really didn't like Avatar" unless they produce and direct a movie? No. Can we say "I didn't like that book; it was dull and predictable," without having written a novel? Of course.

So why for so many, does "I don't think they're a very good coach" (Again, I say this in the general sense, not specifically the complaints directed at Elmira) merit a "Yeah, like you could do any better?"

If your issue is simply with the frequency of the complaints/criticism of the coaches or region, then that's one thing. But it seemed, to me anyway, that you seemed to be upset that people were complaining or being critical at all, which bothered me.

[SOTIER1]

Just taking a time out from selling insurance and feeding my cows.....as I leave my home  "livin in a trailer down by the river". No...not gonna respond to Constanza, cause it sounds to me that he is one of those folks who gets a slanted point of view in their head and all the talking, both sensible and non-sensible, just aint gonna change it. Other points of view must be wrong cause we dont coach, cause we dont play, and because we dont watch as much hoops as he does. Whatever....every coach is great,every program is well run, every conference is ALWAYS at the top,no player is a difference maker...maybe we should not even keep score so there are no  hurt feelings. Enough for now my cows are mooing and a policy is waiting to be sold.

[Costanza]

Bomber,

I love a well thought out argument, especially when it's presented in a positive manner.  I agree with the idea that one doesn't need to be a chef to know a burnt steak when she sees one.  Having reread my initial post today, I would like to clarify that my complaint is with regard to the frequency of negativity.  

My complaint is also with the nature of the complaining.  I too have never sat on a college bench, and I too have complained when a team didn't play well, a coach made a call I didn't understand, or did/didn't play a certain player.  I have no problem with that type of debate.  In fact I welcome that type of debate.  However, there's so many great games, players, and happenings taking place in the women's game today that it's ashamed to come read a message board littered with nothing but venomous criticism of coaches and players.  

Who wants to mire themselves in negativity all the time.  More to the point, who are we to try to get into the mind of  a coach and judge her integrity, character, or morals.  More importantly, it's very disappointing and upsetting when grown adults insult, belittle, and berate 18-22 year old kids on a world wide website.  Just some food for thought.

I for one would love to start coming on here and read some positive posts and engage in debate over upcoming games, who the player of the year candidates are, etc.  Perhaps this thread might help to get that dialogue going.  For instance Bomber, you have presented your arguments in a wonderfully thought out manner complete with actual statistical research in some cases. Additionally, you have challenged me to see a different view point in a positive manner.  I just wish every poster approached things the same way.

[Costanza]

SOTIER1,

Whether you meant to or not, I loved your post and am still laughing out look.  Again, I've never coached a game in my life.  Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to.  I have no idea how coaches, teachers, or any one who works in a similar profession does it.  They work ridiculous hours, never see their families, and are often times largely under appreciated.  Clearly you're welcomed to your opinion, and I am welcomed to mine.  However, before passing judgement on my sensibilities feel free to try to make an effort to have a discussion with me.  As Bomber has already shown, a well thought out argument is a great tool to help some one see another side of things.  All that aside, I find it interesting that you have so many posts insulting coaches, programs, and athletes yet when someone finally throws a little critique your way you don't seem to appreciate it as much.  Or perhaps you're just so darned tired from waking up a the crack of dawn to tend to the livestock.  Oh well, I welcome your opinions and thoughts, and am more than happy to continue the debate.  In the meantime, good luck with the cows and send some 2% up my way when you get a chance.

[TheNextLevel]

Costanza...Perhaps my choice of the words "only"and "class" were poor ones.  No player operates in a vacuum.  I agree that Coach Davis is one the better coaches in our region and Devin Croll is an excellent player as well.  You go on to comment that Berry may be the best player in the league, so really we agree (as we have in the past by virtue of your own posts).  While I have been critical of coaches on occasion, I have never criticized or singled out any player in a negative way (you can check, I did just to make sure).   I still feel that Rochester, Ithaca and Cortland are the top 3 teams in our region and that is what I meant when I said they were they "class of" of upstate NY women's hoops ( I did NOT say they were the ONLY class teams).  Actually, I have been a coach and am in regular contact with many current mens & womens d3 coaches.  It is very demanding, it does take a tremendous amount of energy and time away from home and family...which is the reason I got out.  Please don't take offense just because I don't praise your favorite or any particular player, coach or team.  My posts are usually brief and relatively infreqent.  I can easily defend my opinions if needed (bombers has already done that for me...Thank You bombers)  but I don't feel it necessary to do so in every post.   It's just my opinion.   Sorry to drag on, sorry to offend you and congrats to your daughter, whoever she is and whoever she plays for, and for her achievements.

[Bombers798891]

Bombers finish the regular season 16-0 in conference. Astounding job--as usual--by the women's team...

Also, I just saw the box score from that game...two things stand out.

Klie for the Bombers fills up a scoring sheet...14 pts, 6 reb, 5 steals, 4 blocks

Fuller goes 3-27 from the floor for Stevens...I know you've gotta keep feeding your best player, and with 7 offensive boards, there were probably some putback attempts, but you would think that at some point, you'd need to look for someone else to get a shot, no?

[Bombers798891]

In other games, Fisher edges Utica 77-76. Nice win for the Cardinals but not for the E8 as a whole. Utica probably slips further to the bubble as an at-large with the loss and if they were to get upset by Stevens in the opening round of the tournament, would be 19-7. Would that get them in? Maybe...

If my math is right, last season, prior to the NCAA's, the E8 had a combined 125-106 WL record. Right now it stands at 111-104. So, as a whole, the league has been down this year--since the league will go .500 from here on out, the games over .500 mark will go down from 19 to 7.

Given that they didn't get in at 19-7 last season, that small downtick could hurt. No, I have no clue how the SOS numbers vary, but right now Utica's at 96. Dicey....

[Costanza]

First things first, I'll give credit where credit is due.  Level, I respect both your view point and most recent posting.  With regard to your thoughts on the E8, Utica, and Berry.

More importantly, and moving on to current games that was indeed a tough loss for the Pioneers last night.  Up 4 with two to play on the road and Fisher puts the clamps on.  Utica puts forth and incredible effort to battle back from a big half time deficit only to go flat at the end, missing a couple of free throws and scoring just one point in the final two minutes.  Gotta give credit to Fisher on this one for closing strong.  

I agree Bomber, that it could be trouble city for the pioneers.  At 18-6 with one game to go, a win in their last regular season game and at least one with in the E8 tournament would leave them at 20-7, and that may leave them on the outside looking in for the big dance.  For the E8 to get more than one team, someone is going to have to upset the Bombers on their home court and that's not likely to happen.  Despite all my  ramblings I can't argue with the numbers. A conference that goes 111-104 would spell a down year.

As for Ithaca they are a team ready to make some noise in the big dance.  Pick your poison.  Who do you try to stop?  Bixby? Brown? Klie?  Stop one of those kids and they have a number of role players ready to step in and beat you if you're not paying attention.  They can beat you in a number of ways are incredibly balanced and will be at home for the E8 tournament.  Finally, talk about a player filling up a stat sheet, Klie is a beast.  She does it all, defends, rebounds, scores, and even has a pretty solid assist to turnover ratio.  Where does she stack up statistically against the conferences best players?

Wrapping up.  It's nice to have some spirited and positive dialogue about the conference.

[Bombers798891]

First things first, I'll give credit where credit is due.  Level, I respect both your view point and most recent posting.  With regard to your thoughts on the E8, Utica, and Berry.

More importantly, and moving on to current games that was indeed a tough loss for the Pioneers last night.  Up 4 with two to play on the road and Fisher puts the clamps on.  Utica puts forth and incredible effort to battle back from a big half time deficit only to go flat at the end, missing a couple of free throws and scoring just one point in the final two minutes.  Gotta give credit to Fisher on this one for closing strong.  

I agree Bomber, that it could be trouble city for the pioneers.  At 18-6 with one game to go, a win in their last regular season game and at least one with in the E8 tournament would leave them at 20-7, and that may leave them on the outside looking in for the big dance.  For the E8 to get more than one team, someone is going to have to upset the Bombers on their home court and that's not likely to happen.  Despite all my  ramblings I can't argue with the numbers. A conference that goes 111-104 would spell a down year.

As for Ithaca they are a team ready to make some noise in the big dance.  Pick your poison.  Who do you try to stop?  Bixby? Brown? Klie?  Stop one of those kids and they have a number of role players ready to step in and beat you if you're not paying attention.  They can beat you in a number of ways are incredibly balanced and will be at home for the E8 tournament.  Finally, talk about a player filling up a stat sheet, Klie is a beast.  She does it all, defends, rebounds, scores, and even has a pretty solid assist to turnover ratio.  Where does she stack up statistically against the conferences best players?

Wrapping up.  It's nice to have some spirited and positive dialogue about the conference.

Klie's just a very good, all around player:

10.7 PPG (13th) 6.5 RPG (8th) .457 FG (6th) 2.25 APG (13th) 2.88 SPG (2nd) 1.04 BPG (5th)

You name it, she can do it well.

[bigbetty55]

Congratulations to the Ithaca Bombers on a terrific season!!  My son plays on the men's team and I'm sure glad I got to see so many women's games.  It's been fun to watch such team play and a lot of  unselfishness!!  Good luck to all of you and the coaching staff!  Hope you make a statement in the NCAA's!!!  GO BOMBERS!!!!!!

[SOTIER1]

Ithaca-Utica for E8 championship. Will be a great game. Bixby for Ithaca proved once again she is  "big shot" Bixby. And Berry for Utica showed that she is just, as Ithaca coach Raymond said, "a stud player". Which supporting cast is better?? I believe Ithaca. But Utica bigs under basket  are stronger. Just talked myself into going to the game,hope to see you there.
P.S. What do you fans think of the Ithaca  college TV doing the broadcast? I thought they did a fine job.

[Bombers798891]

Ithaca-Utica for E8 championship. Will be a great game. Bixby for Ithaca proved once again she is  "big shot" Bixby. And Berry for Utica showed that she is just, as Ithaca coach Raymond said, "a stud player". Which supporting cast is better?? I believe Ithaca. But Utica bigs under basket  are stronger. Just talked myself into going to the game,hope to see you there.
P.S. What do you fans think of the Ithaca  college TV doing the broadcast? I thought they did a fine job.

I'll refrain from a prediction since I'm covering the game today. I'll say this: The Bombers have had better balance than Utica in the games they've played. Berry has scored 55 of Utica's 125 points in those two games, whereas Bixby has scored 34 of Ithaca's 132. Does that mean Ithaca's got a better cast? Eh. Berry's probably asked to do more, but she's more than capable Frankly, I don't mind it if a team puts the ball in the hands of their best player a lot.

But Utica will need other players to step up as well. In the first half of yesterday's game, Berry had 14 of Utica's 22 points. In the second half, Fiore really played much better and you could see how much of a difference it made. No player, even one as talented as Berry, can be the only option for a team.

The Pioneers pressed on defense in the second half, and the intensity really helped, as the Ducks seemed to have trouble moving the ball quickly enough to get out of it. Ithaca's got better ball handlers (in my opinion) so they should have more success against it.

Either way, it should be a great game.

One question: Stevens only had nine players in uniform at the game. That seems amazingly low. The roster lists 12. Were people hurt? The way it was being called, I was worried they'd run out of players if the game went into OT.