MBB: Northwest Conference

[David Collinge]

I already posted my midseason awards, but since this board is pretty much just me talkin to you, lets see...

That may be true, but there are others of us out here lurking, interested in what you have to say but with nothing to contribute. 

COTY:  As of now I agree with you, Coach James always seems to overachieve.  If WU wins league, gotta go with James.  However, if UPS wins league it has to go to Bridgeland.  You gotta figure the winning team at worst finishes 13-3.  If that's UPS, they're 43-5 in NWC action in 3 years (3 titles).  If that doen't merit COTY, what does? 

Does the 'T' in 'COTY' stand for 'Three?'  If not, then I don't see what UPS' record the prior two seasons has to do with who is THIS season's best coach.

[bearcatsfan3]

BHawks:

Agree with you to some extent on the people having great year's and tanking the rest of the time, but that's why the awards are handed out on a YEARLY basis...it's a "What have you done for me lately" type deal, so this season is all that matters...that being said, if Whitman doesn't get into the NWC tourney, then you have to go with one of the top 3 teams coaches...

As for the "McVey even if WU wins the league", I think you're points for him in actuality HURT his case...if he is so far and away above the other posts in the league (and I do agree he is the best big in the league) there is no reason for him to be in foul trouble, as the inferior players should not have the ability to put him in jeopardy of having to committ fouls.  I doubt officials are getting 4 calls against him wrong every single time he's in foul trouble (a flop here and there I can see, but 4 per game is just conspiracy theory)...add the fact that he (according to articles from the games) was in foul trouble against IWU and Warner Pac lends me to believe he is foul prone (or you could argue the system UPS plays lends itself to putting its own players in foul jeopardy, sort of a double edge sword argument)...also, if the 4 out 1 in puts him in the officials wrath, it also helps him in that I would think teams can RARELY double him, considering how highly people talk of UPS ability to shoot the 3 with the other 4 guys, or the fact that they are always in an up tempo game, where McVey is probably hard to find...plus, the officiating situation hasn't effected Curtiss and his numbers, so why should it effect McVey?? From the game I saw, both are very good players, but neither is so dominant that they can win POY without a conference title (and neither can Olinger)...

Moving on, I also am very worried about Willamette's homestand next week (I expect a win at PLU, despite their upset of Whitworth earlier in the year)...Beating Whitworth will be a task in and of itself, and to have a quality Whitman team come in right afterward is daunting...I also am curious as to what you or anyone else thinks the postseason chances for UPS/WU/Whitworth are? I've read on this site that the tournament has expanded and there something like 18 at large berth's available? Would the NWC get one of these??

As always, good to talk to you BHawks, and we welcome anyone else...

[SpooH SreggoL]

Bearcats, you seem to be adamant that the POY will come from the conference champion.  However, we have seen as recently as last year that a runner-up can sport the POY (Gayman).  Does this mean that you consider Gayman more dominant in his senior year than McVey is now?  Obviously, you could make a case with numbers, but I have to side with BHawk's argument that McVey's presence and a slight consideration of UPS' style of play overrides any statistical differential.

[bearcatsfan3]

My point is that I do not believe any of the three candidates this year are so dominant that they can win POY without a team title...I would have argued the same thing about Gayman last year if I was on this board...his numbers look good, but they didn't win the championship, so I would have said the numbers weren't enough to warrant the award...

[blackhawks4]

I have a hard time separating winning and COTY.  A coach keeps his job by winning  games; therefore whoever wins should be COTY!!!  I understand the team that loses their star early and goes on to finish 11-5, or the team with no talent and the new coach who goes 9-7.  I understand those case for COTY.  There's none of those this year or last year.  What I don't understand is how Bridgeland goes 15-1 last year and a top ten national ranking and doesn't get COTY!  It goes to the coach of the second place team who is consistently in the bottom half of the standings but has one decent year and finishes 2nd!!!  Come'on.  James has done an incredible job this year but he and the other coaches (other than Lowry) are at no more of a disadvantage than Bridgeland, and he wins consistently while others don't.  All the coaches (except Lowry) have been at their schools (bridgeland might actually be the most recent before Lowry?), they can all recruit, and they can all play however they want.  This year COTY needs to go to the coach that wins the most games.  Enough of this...anyways.

McVey's in foul trouble all the time because he's a hack.  He's the king of cheap fouls (i.e. an over the back, or moving a hip instead of freezing with his hand up).  That said, the 4 out 1 in doesn't help, and he does get very tough calls on a nightly basis.  He DOES get doubled nearly every game.  Teams come from the weak side and try to rotate if he kicks it out.  I think McVey is dominating enough to get POTY if his team doesn't win it but I realize his numbers need to improve.

Careful Bearcatsfan3 when talking about PLU...You saw what happended to Himjay, and I haven't seen him backm since!

My personal opinion is the NWC has no chance of getting an at large bid if UPS wins conference tournament, regardless of who wins league.  If UPS wins conference and loses in conference tourney, UPS has a very, very small chance at an at large bid.  That's my opinion and I'm sure you'll hear differently from somebody, but I would be surprised.

Who you got in the conference tourney?  Are you implying wu/ww/ups?  I have little faith in whitman making the conference tourney but they are scary as hell and can beat anybody any night. I say gfu @ wu, winner goes to ups. 


 

[ds0097]

To add my two cents on McVey, he is definitely prone to picking up cheap fouls on the defensive end. On the offensive end defenders are able to get one or two charges called against him a game that would make vlade Divac and Dennis Rodman proud. For one of the top players in the NWC he gets about the same amount of respect from refs that most freshmen do...

As far as the NCAA tourney goes, it would take another NWC teamed to get ranked in the top 15 for there to be even a slim chance that two teams make it from the NWC. Even then this seams very unlikely because nobody outside of the northwest really knows the teams, and UPS hasn't done enough in the tourney to establish a rep for the league nationwide. Whether this is fair or not (drawing the back-to-back champs each year in the sectionals isn't the easiest way to advance very far), it is the reality so an NWC team is going to have to make it to the Final Four to change it. Regardless of all this, no other NWC team really even has a chance to get ranked this year

[piofan]

Blackhawks--- I have to disagree about the COTY in a sense.  I agree that teams that are winning those coaches should be the one considered first and foremost.  But in regards to way this season is turning out...Gordie James has to be well ahead of Bridgeland.  UPS was suppose to be hands down favorite and are having a bit of difficulty.  I think if WU finishes within a game of UPS (or happens to win it) then James will be given COTY.  Bridgeland is doing a wonderful job and should be duly recognized, but Gordie has the guys playing at a level higher than they maybe should be. Molitor deserves recognition, but no coach who finishes .500 in a league should ever get it, unless he is using 7th graders.

POY-----this will come down to McVey and Curtiss, however, if WU is able to win the league, Olinger may steal it away. I personally think McVey should get it based on stats and consistant performance. Although I havent seen them play, McVey seems like the steady hand for UPS and that may come into play during voting. Even though Curtiss is deserving as well he may miss a crucial vote from a coach he played bad against......

I havent bee around to see alot of NWC action, but have followed as best as possible over the past years, and this seems to be one of the best races in a few years time.  Looking forward to a good finish........

[blackhawks4]

Piofan-

Is it Bridgeland's fault that he recruits better players??  Should he be penalized because year after year he reloads with talent??  Is it his fault that his system is dominating the league? 

Bridgeland has turned the UPS program from subpar to dominating the NWC.  He has earned the expectations that come along with the being the best in the conference. And Bridgeland should be penalized because someone who isn't doing what he is to prepare his team in the offseason can overachieve and finish second this year??

Its no coincidence that UPS is loaded with talent year after year. It's no coincidence that their system has gotten better the past few years. 

Why hasn't Willamette won the title the past two years? Or Linfield or Whitworth?  What does Bridgeland have at UPS that's so much better than those places.  Here's an idea...have James go out and get better players.  That way he won't have to hope he can make them "play at a level higher than they maybe should be (as you say)." But don't penalize Bridgeland because he has put his program in a better position to succeed in the offseason than the others!

Don't penalize Bridgeland because he outworks the rest of the coaches in the league...maybe combined.  UPS is a "hands down favorite" because of what he's done to get them there. 

Your argument is ridiculous.

Molitor recognition??? Right...let's see: 2-12, 4-12, 7-9, 8-10, 3-13, 4-12, 6-10, 4-12, 3-13, 3-13. NWC records since he took over.  But it's Coach of the "Year!"  I forgot.  Let's see if he can have a winning season first.  Heck let's go for 8-8, and hey why not??  I'm with it.  Coach of the Year.

Spare me.

UPS having difficulty??? Yeah the Loggers haven't been at the top of their game; but as far as I know, especially in the NWC league play,  a win is a win.  And last I checked UPS was 7-1, with their one loss to the other best team in the league, on the road, in the toughest gym in the conference.

Not taking away anything from James or the Willamette players who I think most would agree are overachieving.  They've had a hell of a year and having me second guessing myself!  WU has a serious shot at a title.  Hope this doesn't jinx you guys. 

[piofan]

Blackhawk-

First and foremost......I AGREE WITH YOU ABOUT BRIDGELAND......my point is that a coach that does "better than he was suppose to" a lot of the times wins the award for THAT season.  Bridgeland is the best OVERALL coach in the league. But recruiting doesnt win you COTY.

The only reason I mentioned Skip Molitor, was because the last time he had a chance of making the conference tournament was in 94-95.  I also heard his team is so-so group of guys.  No way this guy can win any award....just saying he has done a good job this year. NEVER said he should be COTY....or considered....just said recognized for doing a good job this year.

[bearcatsfan3]

I'm just excited to have so many people on the board!


BHawks: Stop trying to jinx us with all of your praise...its unnatural for you to be positive about the opposition, and that kind of reverse karma is not wanted over here in Bearcat land...

Good points about Whitman/COY, but I think you're fooling yourself if you don't think a school in salem or tacoma doesn't have a distinct advantage over a school located in Walla Walla, Wa...yes, I'm sure Bridgeland works his tail off in recruiting, but to say that Molitor doesn't, or that James doesn't is being a bit naive...
In addition, who's to say the academic requirements at lc/wu/ups are the same as whitw/whitman/linfield? does anyone have any solid numbers for GPA, SAT, etc on who get's in where?  While all the NWC schools are "academic" in nature, I'm sure some have higher levels of tuition/academic requirements than others, which once again may or may not slant the playing field to one school or another...
Now, Bridgeland has gotten tons of players from CA (including yourself if we're all not mistaken), which is definately him working hard at getting out of state kids...but also, doesn't that bring program budgets into play? If UPS can afford to send him to CA x amount of times, but Whitman/whoever can't, isn't that a perk of his job, rather than "Bridge outworking every coach in the NWC." (Even if he is paying for this himself, wouldn't that be simply because he can afford to, and maybe the others can't?)...
I don't  have any factual numbers on any of this, but they have to be considered before we go slamming certain coaches for not "working hard." I'd bet all of the leagues coaches work hard...

Now, as for the NWC tourney, I see whitworth edging out gfox and whitman, and them going to tacoma, with the winner ending up in salem to play the bearcats for the tourney ticket...although I think that if UPS wins the league, but falls in the NWC title game, they go to the dance as well...there are more bids this year, so they (and probably they alone) would have a shot at the ticket...

[blackhawks4]

Every school has its advantages and disadvantages.  And of course walla walla is a tougher sell, but never being .500 is underachieving a little.  the same way not finishing in the top half is underachieving for lin and ww, with budget, reputation, and facilities.   Budgets, academics, etc. all play a roll in a programs success, but UPS is at no more an advantage than any other school, ill give whitman and maybe gfu.  but still, there are good players everywhere, its a matter of finding them and getting them...and winning, making the most out of a situation...which no one has done better than bridgeland. 
     on to tonight, I got  ups over lc, wmn over lin,   pac over plu, and ww over fox at their place...anybody else?

[Pat Coleman]

Quiet room.

Anyone notice that the NWC was written about in Around the Nation this week?

[Himjay23]

Very good writeup about Willamette . Good to see the NWC getting some attention. I agree with most of the first and second teams posted so far.  Also, I saw PLU play twice early in the season and based on that I thought they had NO shot at beating anyone in the top-half of the league. Obviously, they improved a bit since then and I ended up eating my words. As for coach of the year, if Willamette wins of even gets second, James deserves it, especially based on what happened last year. When a team is picked for fifth and gets first or second, that reflects on the coach getting everything that he has from his team.  Should be a great finish this year and I look forward to the playoffs!

[blackhawks4]

Would be nice to see Curtiss get POTW this week as UPS climbs back into a tie for first...Oh, its between players from UPS and Whitworth, gee, wonder who will get it?

Is nice to see wu in around the nation, I'll take any love the NWC can get.  Been a while since NWC men had 2 teams ranked.

Can't overlook UPS @ PLU, rivalry game on the road for the loggers.

Big week next weekend, ups @ fox and willamette has ww and wmn. 

Bye Saturday gives logger coaching staff opportunity to scout NWC...just as im sure wu staff was scouting friday night

[pineconefan]

Blackhawk,
What are you implying about the POTW selections?  Be a man and say what you really mean.  Do you even know how those are chosen?