MBB: Northwest Conference

[Pat Coleman]

They played St. Thomas this season.

[Cdalakelady]

Whitworth won their conference, won their tournament and have advanced to the sweet 16. That is domething to be proud of. But then we are use to getting no respect in Spokane.

[madzillagd]

They played St. Thomas this season.

...and lost.  How much mileage can you get from losing a game?  That was 28 games ago and yet it's still being used as justification for a top 10 ranking.  They may be a top 10 team, but for me you have beat some top teams to prove that at some point.  Correct me if I'm wrong but WW is the only top 10 team that hasn't beaten a top 25 team.

[Pat Coleman]

Well, you made the point about Middlebury -- when we last voted, they hadn't won one of those either. Pretty much in the same boat still, even if Midd did just beat No. 23 this week. That alone doesn't shout out Top 10 either, but we give both programs that respect this year.

[madzillagd]

Whitworth won their conference, won their tournament and have advanced to the sweet 16. That is domething to be proud of. But then we are use to getting no respect in Spokane.

Like I said, any win in the tournament is a great win.  A #6 ranking without beating a top 25 team in 29 games played, I don't think a lack of respect is the issue. 

[A Buc Forever]

Whitworth has had a heck of season.  They haven't played the kind of competition they have faced the last few years where they beat several highly ranked teams and went deep in the tourney playing some very tough teams.  However, the schedule is not their fault. They scheduled some traditionally good teams that were a little down this year.  The draw they got in the tournament is a little easier than than they've had in the past. That's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.  So, a 22-3 regular season record doesn't quite mean the same as it did in the past and getting to the Sweet Sixteen was a little easier this time, it still does not take away from the fact that this team won league, won the league tournament, and is in the Sweet Sixteen.  Hats off to them, they are playing the hand they were dealt and they are playing it well.

[Cdalakelady]

And I do not understand the concern over the rankings. We are in the middle of a tournament and the final rankings will be decided by the teams playing.

[playball]

And I do not understand the concern over the rankings. We are in the middle of a tournament and the final rankings will be decided by the teams playing.

This is my take on why the rankings do and do not matter (as if my take means anything!)

Matters:
Is a reflection of how the team has done during the season.  The higher the ranking the better body of work that team has put together, which can show how good the team really is.
Shows the perception of the team by people who know basketball.
Generally a good indicator of strength of team, however you still play the games for a reason.

Example of why rankings matter: home games in the playoffs, which I was always told is a benefit of about 10 points to the home team just because of crowd, being used to the gym, etc.

Doesn't matter:
Games are still played and anyone can beat anyone on any given day. Example: Chaminade beats Texas this year.


I think the point Madzillagd is trying to make is that WW hasn't beat a similarly ranked team.  This would show that their strength of schedule is down (Not their fault, schedules are made before the season starts.  Usually strong teams have been down this year).  An example of beating ranked teams and it mattering is Duke this year.  Early on they smashed on Top 5 teams early and have done ok in the ACC.  They didn't win their conference but will get the overall top seed (most likely) in March Madness.  This usually means that they will have an easier route to the final four.  So, rankings matter when the tourneys are set.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Which rankings are you talking about? It seems like you are confusing or combining two very different aspects of different ranking systems.

The Top 25 is voted on by people around the country using whatever information they deem necessary.

The Regional Rankings is an NCAA system based on criteria and only on a regional aspect.

Home games are determined by the Regional Rankings not the Top 25, so national polls have nothing to do with the NCAA tournament.

[madzillagd]

I'm talking the make believe world of the Top 25, I'm not talking about Regional ranking or anything like that.  We have a week to kill between games, we have to talk about something.  The 'all they have accomplished' comment just got my mind churning because in terms of making the Sweet Sixteen etc. they have of course accomplished a lot (real world accomplishment).  But, in terms of the Top 25 (make believe world), they have yet to prove themselves and we don't know yet even at this late stage of the game whether they are truly the #6 team in the country or whether they really are the #26th team in the country.  We'd have a better sense of that if they had played other Top 25 teams because we could compare them to each other but they've only played 1 and they lost. We know they aren't they #1 team but I'm still not sure what makes them the #6 team instead of the #16 team.

Here are the resumes of the Top 10 teams (current poll) and their records against other Top 25 teams (current poll only).  Each win/loss listed separately so you know if they played a team more than once.

#1 ST:  Wins 6, 11, 14, 11, 22

#2 Amherst: Wins #8, 8, 8, 7, 13

#3 North Central: Wins 15, 22, 10, 5  Losses  10, 22

#4 WPI: Wins 13, 24  Losses 24

#5 UWWW: Wins 10  Losses 14, 14, 3

#6 WW: Wins    Losses 1

#7 Midd:  Wins 23  Losses 2, 8, 8

#8 Williams:  Wins 7, 7, 9  Losses 2, 2, 2

#9 Catholic: Wins 11   Losses  8

#10 Ill Wes:  Wins 22, 3, 22, 17  Losses 5, 17, 3


St Thomas and Amherst have each won 5 games against Top 25 teams without losing.  Very impressive and it's easy to see why they are #1 & #2 in the nation.  You look through that list there's only one team that hasn't proven themselves with a big win yet.  Midd was there last week too but they got that win over #23 CS so it helped to show that they should be somewhere up there (but shouldn't be above Williams which they lost to both times in my opinion). 

WW is a Sweet Sixteen team in the real world.  In make believe Top 25 world I have no idea yet if they are the #6 team in the country and it might take 2 weeks to find that out if they get to go up against St Marys. 

[(509)Rat]

So UWW's 1 win against a top 25 team and it's 3 losses is much more impressive? That's what justifies their #5 rating? Or is it the fact that they've won games against a lot of "good" opponents?

The NWC was down and naturally top 25 games are going to be hard to come by when your out on the PNW island. Whitworth might not have played a bunch of top 25 teams, but they have a higher SOS than any of the NESCAC teams, higher than St. Mary's, Catholic's, and Woosters. They've played above average competition all season long and done nothing but win. Given Whitworth's and the NWC's performances in years past, and that they played a fairly difficult and diverse non-conference sched, and that this is a top 25 poll where history typically matters to voters and W-L is king...it makes perfect sense why Whitworth would be #6.

And since when is this "easy road to the sweet 16" issue/argument a thing? I don't remember people saying that about any of the NE school's brackets. Ever.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

madzillagd - my comment was to playball who was referencing both it appeared.

[playball]

Sorry, I was under the impression that the tournament was done by a selection committee. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It is... using criteria that creates the regional rankings...

[playball]

Im still fuzzy on this.  Is it then set up like NWC Champ versus Sciac champ? WIAC Champ versus at large? Etc?