MBB: Northwest Conference

[Pinecone_Curtain]

Sorry to change the topic from Clemson back to basketball, but I enjoyed this article about the Gonzaga and Whitworth basketball success in Spokane. http://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/basketball/whitworth-finds-its-niche-playing-gonzagas-shadow

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just an FYI - I believe I did ask Giovanine and Logie on different Hoopsville interviews why they couldn't get that game scheduled (somewhat tongue-in-cheek)... both indicated they looked at it or there was some conversations, but it wasn't something either could make work. It happens more than you realize in Division III... what seems obvious on paper and a map is no where close to obvious when it come down to it.

[D O.C.]

I was hoping to stay with Clemson a post or two longer.
I saw some of MaxPreps H.S. tournament in Rancho Mirage, CA.
Watch the next 2 days on your internet.
Chino Hills, CA, has 4 family members committed to UCLA, one's a freshman.
3s and D.

[D O.C.]

Whoa! Les Schwab Invitational (Hillsboro) going on 26-30 has DeMatha, Oak Hill Academy, and Garfield (Seattle)!
Lemme know if there's any d3 talent there.

[Gregory Sager]

Therefore, I find it hard to rank our team #2 in the country, when in the history of our conference, we have never won the title, never been the runner-up, and unless someone has other info, been in the final 4 one time, 15 years ago.

No NWC team has ever reached the D3 Final Four. Fifteen years ago? In 2000 the Final Four consisted of Calvin, UW-Eau Claire, Salem State, and Franklin & Marshall. In 2001 the Final Four consisted of Catholic, William Paterson, Illinois Wesleyan, and Ohio Northern.

[(509)Rat]

Good win for Whitworth on a neutral court. Didn't get to see any of it unfortunately. Would be interested to hear what the d3 guys thought of both teams seeing them in person.

[D O.C.]

They think Whitworth belongs where they are until they fall.

I actually watched it on the web. The game got tied with about six (?) minutes left and then several WW team members combined to pull away.

BUT! could have blown it all there at the end.

[Pinecone_Curtain]

Well, Whitworth beat two mediocre teams and didn't win either in convincing fashion. Again, I think this is a top 15 team, but certainly not a top five team. However, these were classic games under Logie: the Bucs won a grind-it-out affair thanks to their defense and a few timely shots. Whitworth will get its first real test on Jan. 5 when they host Whitman. Should be a good game!

[(509)Rat]

It was almost safe to say this upcoming game was the first real test for both Whitworth and Whitman...but the Missionaries lost to the first "good" team they played, Tufts certainly isn't a world beater though.

I think Whitworths results are somewhat a product of the system/style they play. They certainly have the talent to hang with anyone, but I think the #2 team in the nation needs to be capable of putting away teams once they get up by double digits in the second half.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I would not, by any definition, call Calvin mediocre. Do they have a below .500 record? Yes. But I can name you a few hundred teams who would kill to have that record and that schedule. Is their season below Calvin standards? Sure. But I again can name you a few hundred teams who would love to be in Calvin's shoes right now.

Whitworth may not have blown the socks off their opponents this week in Vegas, but they still got the job done against a very good, though missing some reserve pieces, Calvin squad and a tenacious and improving Mary Hardin-Baylor team. They saw two very different styles, coaching philosophies, etc., and adjusted to those in less than 24 hours to win both games. It is hard to win games in these formats on the road especially at a tournament like the D3hoops.com Classic. Many coaches will tell you being 1-1 in those events is pretty good. 2-0 doesn't happen all that often at large events and Whitworth was one of just three (?) teams to do it out of the 15 who were on hand in Vegas (St. Vincent went 2-1 in a rare 3-game schedule).

I am quite comfortable with Whitworth in my top five (they will fluctuate along with every one else I suspect for the rest of the season). When the conversation about the Pirates starts with Kenny Love and he isn't even the team's leading scorer, that says a lot for the program. That starting five is very talented and they have a dangerous player in all five positions on the floor. I will say Sears would be the only one with a bit of a downside as he struggles to move latterly and Green for UMHB exposed him when attacking the rim. However, Whitworth has what many wish they had: depth on the bench in nearly all five positions. They didn't play Love all that much in the game against UMHB and had plenty of others step up when needed. Can they make a run to Salem? Sure, but that also really depends on how the bracket will be set-up. If they have Augustana in their way... the mountain is going to shaped like Everest. If they have a different bracket set-up and maybe even get lucky with hosting the second weekend (doubtful, but crazier things have happened), I think their chances are some of the best this program has seen. What really makes them scary is how many pieces of this team return (on paper) next season.

I was pleasantly surprised with PLU. I didn't know what to expect from the Lutes coming in. I saw the record, saw how they had improved over the last few seasons, but also understood their schedule left a lot of be desired. They held their own very well. They also went 2-0 and beat that tenacious UMHB team (who played them tough and played three games in four days). They also got a win over an under-appreciated UW-Stout team. No, the Blue Devils are not going to be in a position to win the WIAC, but the bottom of the WIAC is far better than the middle, even the top, of many conferences in Division III. Again, PLU saw two very different styles and teams and did a very nice job handling the adjustments. I love their size inside and I think their guard play is probably the best they have had in a long time. Coach Dickerson is certainly a serious man, but he has this team well prepared. I think PLU may be the surprise of the season and don't be shocked to see them in the NCAA tournament this season. I will actually seriously consider them for the Top 25 after watching them this week in Vegas.

[blackhawks4]

So if I'm understanding your point blackhawks4, your issue is not understanding how anyone from this conference could #2 based on the conference's overall record on the national level.  In other words, you would be equally as flummoxed should Whitman be the one with the #2 ranking.  Have I got that correct?

It's truly an honest question.  And if that is indeed your point I get what you're saying; past performance would appear to influence most national rankings especially early in the season. Your point might get lost in translation because it often sounds like your point is to merely take a jab at Whitworth and not the conference as a whole.

Your statement above is 100% correct.  Not a jab at WW.   Now, in full disclosure, if it were Whitman ranked that high, I obviously wouldn't be as vocal about it.  But, the facts over the last however many years are what the facts are.

Sidenote:  I actually DO like the job that Logie has done.  He hasn't advanced the team past where they were when he inherited (elite 8), but there's something to be said for being the top dog on the block and staying there--when you have a huge target on your back.  IMO he's also filling pretty big shoes (Hayford).

Just an FYI - I believe I did ask Giovanine and Logie on different Hoopsville interviews why they couldn't get that game scheduled (somewhat tongue-in-cheek)... both indicated they looked at it or there was some conversations, but it wasn't something either could make work. It happens more than you realize in Division III... what seems obvious on paper and a map is no where close to obvious when it come down to it.

Nice work, McHugh!  Can't believe a game wasn't scheduled with the Whits.  There's really no excuse.  What seems obvious on paper...is really not that obvious when coaches are trying to build resumes??  Look, I've never made a schedule before, but I know that when really important things come up in my work life, and I'm notified months in advance, often times i can re-arrange.  So, I'm finding it hard to believe that when the question is asked, "Hey you want to play next year?"..that the details can't be worked out.  BS.

It was almost safe to say this upcoming game was the first real test for both Whitworth and Whitman...but the Missionaries lost to the first "good" team they played, Tufts certainly isn't a world beater though.

I think Whitworths results are somewhat a product of the system/style they play. They certainly have the talent to hang with anyone, but I think the #2 team in the nation needs to be capable of putting away teams once they get up by double digits in the second half.

Agree, Rat.  Disappointing loss.  Tufts looks to be a top 25'er though (just based off of W's and L's)

I would not, by any definition, call Calvin mediocre. Do they have a below .500 record? Yes. But I can name you a few hundred teams who would kill to have that record and that schedule. Is their season below Calvin standards? Sure. But I again can name you a few hundred teams who would love to be in Calvin's shoes right now.

Whitworth may not have blown the socks off their opponents this week in Vegas, but they still got the job done against a very good, though missing some reserve pieces, Calvin squad and a tenacious and improving Mary Hardin-Baylor team. They saw two very different styles, coaching philosophies, etc., and adjusted to those in less than 24 hours to win both games. It is hard to win games in these formats on the road especially at a tournament like the D3hoops.com Classic. Many coaches will tell you being 1-1 in those events is pretty good. 2-0 doesn't happen all that often at large events and Whitworth was one of just three (?) teams to do it out of the 15 who were on hand in Vegas (St. Vincent went 2-1 in a rare 3-game schedule).

McHugh, I'm perplexed.  Why cant we just call a spade, a spade?  PLU & WW went 2-0 and beat bad teams.  They did what they should have done.  Listen I liked that they scheduled the games, just bummer that both Calvin and MH are down this year (and Stout for what its worth).  But why the need to defend WW??  They haven't beaten anybody.

Jan. 5 should be a war. 

[Gregory Sager]

Just an FYI - I believe I did ask Giovanine and Logie on different Hoopsville interviews why they couldn't get that game scheduled (somewhat tongue-in-cheek)... both indicated they looked at it or there was some conversations, but it wasn't something either could make work. It happens more than you realize in Division III... what seems obvious on paper and a map is no where close to obvious when it come down to it.

Nice work, McHugh!  Can't believe a game wasn't scheduled with the Whits.  There's really no excuse.  What seems obvious on paper...is really not that obvious when coaches are trying to build resumes??  Look, I've never made a schedule before, but I know that when really important things come up in my work life, and I'm notified months in advance, often times i can re-arrange.  So, I'm finding it hard to believe that when the question is asked, "Hey you want to play next year?"..that the details can't be worked out.  BS.

I completely disagree. I've talked to enough coaches about scheduling to know just how hard it can be to fit in a specific date against a specific opponent. And those problems are compounded when it's a long-distance trip that involves air travel and hotel stays. And the fact that Augie's trip took place over winter break doesn't necessarily make it any easier, because the NCAA mandates seven off days (no practices, no games) during the season, and a large percentage of D3 coaches annually plan for those off days to fall right around Christmas, for obvious reasons.

[(509)Rat]

I completely disagree. I've talked to enough coaches about scheduling to know just how hard it can be to fit in a specific date against a specific opponent. And those problems are compounded when it's a long-distance trip that involves air travel and hotel stays. And the fact that Augie's trip took place over winter break doesn't necessarily make it any easier, because the NCAA mandates seven off days (no practices, no games) during the season, and a large percentage of D3 coaches annually plan for those off days to fall right around Christmas, for obvious reasons.

I'm not suggesting its "easy" to schedule games at specific locations at specific times, but it's not like this is FBS football where ADs are scheduling home and homes for the year 2020. You can argue that it would have been cost prohibitive for Augustana to fly to Spokane and get 2 games instead of Seattle/Portland to get 3. But winter break, Whitworth/Whitman obligations, etc just don't hold any water this year. Both Whits were sitting at home with plenty of time to get their days off in. Now neither Whit nor Augie knew they would be ranked 1-2 even a year ago, but Whitworth and Whitman should be thinking about scheduling WIAC, CCIW, MIAA opponents before Millsaps if they aren't already. Can't speak for Whitman but Whitworth has the $ to travel, even if things dried up a bit after Hayford left...

[Gregory Sager]

I completely disagree. I've talked to enough coaches about scheduling to know just how hard it can be to fit in a specific date against a specific opponent. And those problems are compounded when it's a long-distance trip that involves air travel and hotel stays. And the fact that Augie's trip took place over winter break doesn't necessarily make it any easier, because the NCAA mandates seven off days (no practices, no games) during the season, and a large percentage of D3 coaches annually plan for those off days to fall right around Christmas, for obvious reasons.

I'm not suggesting its "easy" to schedule games at specific locations at specific times, but it's not like this is FBS football where ADs are scheduling home and homes for the year 2020. You can argue that it would have been cost prohibitive for Augustana to fly to Spokane and get 2 games instead of Seattle/Portland to get 3.

I haven't asked any of the Augie insiders that I know about the scheduling rationale behind the recent PNW trip of the Rock Islanders. But I suspect that the geographical situation to which you allude is a possible contender for the primary reason why it was scheduled the way it was. Seattle and Portland offered multiple options for three games, because the vast majority of NWC teams are located within an hour's busride of those two cities. Spokane and Walla Walla didn't -- and if you tried Seattle and Spokane or Portland and Spokane, then you're talking about either more flights or extremely long bus trips. Mind you, I'm not saying that it's definitely the reason why Grey Giovanine scheduled the trip the way that he did; as I said, I don't know what the definite reason is. But it's a logical explanation.

But winter break, Whitworth/Whitman obligations, etc just don't hold any water this year. Both Whits were sitting at home with plenty of time to get their days off in.

Are you certain of that? Do you know for a fact when the Whitworth and Whitman programs each elected to get in their off days this season?

Now neither Whit nor Augie knew they would be ranked 1-2 even a year ago, but Whitworth and Whitman should be thinking about scheduling WIAC, CCIW, MIAA opponents before Millsaps if they aren't already. Can't speak for Whitman but Whitworth has the $ to travel, even if things dried up a bit after Hayford left...

That's another matter entirely, of course. I've had the you-West-Coasters-need-to-travel conversation before in the SCIAC room, where my suggestion wasn't well-received. I get the feeling, though, that NWC fans are more aware of what it takes to get to the next level in March than are their SCIAC counterparts, probably because it's the NWC teams that win that West Coast pod every year and advance off the D3 island to the D3 mainland. (Also, the SCIAC's got the warm weather that will always attract snowbird teams that have the bucks to fly to Cali and get winter suntans, so why should they worry about traveling? Such is their reasoning.) An ambitious NWC coach who can get the money together for such a trip could fly into Chicago or Cleveland or the Twin Cities, pick up three really good opponents over a four- or five-day stay, and both get a feel for how midwestern D3 hoops is played and possibly burnish his team's Pool C credentials.

I saw Whitworth play in Wheaton's season-opening tourney back in 2006-07, and really enjoyed it. That was a very good Pirates team. NWC teams should definitely do that sort of thing more often if they have both the desire and the resources to make their programs nationally competitive.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I would not, by any definition, call Calvin mediocre. Do they have a below .500 record? Yes. But I can name you a few hundred teams who would kill to have that record and that schedule. Is their season below Calvin standards? Sure. But I again can name you a few hundred teams who would love to be in Calvin's shoes right now.

Whitworth may not have blown the socks off their opponents this week in Vegas, but they still got the job done against a very good, though missing some reserve pieces, Calvin squad and a tenacious and improving Mary Hardin-Baylor team. They saw two very different styles, coaching philosophies, etc., and adjusted to those in less than 24 hours to win both games. It is hard to win games in these formats on the road especially at a tournament like the D3hoops.com Classic. Many coaches will tell you being 1-1 in those events is pretty good. 2-0 doesn't happen all that often at large events and Whitworth was one of just three (?) teams to do it out of the 15 who were on hand in Vegas (St. Vincent went 2-1 in a rare 3-game schedule).

McHugh, I'm perplexed.  Why cant we just call a spade, a spade?  PLU & WW went 2-0 and beat bad teams.  They did what they should have done.  Listen I liked that they scheduled the games, just bummer that both Calvin and MH are down this year (and Stout for what its worth).  But why the need to defend WW??  They haven't beaten anybody.

Jan. 5 should be a war.

I am not sure what you are perplexed about. I sat in an arena for four days and watch sixteen basketball games. Calvin is NOT a bad team. You look at their record and see them below .500 (at 5-6, by the way), but I would argue there are a few hundred teams in this country who would LOVE to be where Calvin is with that schedule. Those several hundered would love to have just one or two of the talent on Calvin's squad. Are they down this year by the standards we are used to? Yes, but they are not a bad team. Of course, I'm saying that having seen them in person. You are saying that sitting in your house admittedly trying to find ways to ding Whitworth for their success while you admit you wouldn't do it for Whitman (your alma mater, right?).

Has Whitworth "beaten anybody?" On paper, probably not. In person, I would argue they beat a pretty good Calvin squad (who will be competing, I suspect, for 2-4 in the MIAA) and a difficult, especially match-up wise, UMHB squad (who will also be in the upper half or third of their conference). Maybe they have more to prove for yourself, but I love the talent they have both on the floor and on the bench and I think they are a legit squad this year. But my opinion can change. They lose five games, I won't have them #2 on my ballot - that's why from now on we vote every week.

By the way, I am not defending Whitworth... I am presenting to you why I don't agree with you.