MBB: Northwest Conference

[(509)Rat]

Blackhawks is right about "style" contributing to Whitworth's success over Whtmn. You see it every year and we talk about it every year, when Whitman has better results early in the season against the same opponents and someone (usually Blackhawks) says, "THIS is the year Whitman knocks off Whitworth, see, look at how much worse they beat team X or team Y." And then someone else comes on and reminds everyone that Whitman's style often exposes weaker teams leading to bigger point differentials...in fact, here is a post from Nov 30, 2014...

Whitman plays a style that exposes teams with lesser talent and over the past several years has given their players and fans a lot of confidence going in to the NWC season. They look at the box scores of games Whitworth has with common opponents and come to the same conclusion that blackhawks is right now. We beat team A by more points than Whitworth did, therefore we are better than Whitworth. Then the season plays out and Whitworth is again on top of the conference and in the national tourney. Maybe it will be different this year...wouldn't hold my breath.

Pac gets the Whits this weekend. Still not sure what all the fuss is about over the Boxers. They beat the worst team in the MIAC (who also lost to Willamette) and Occidental (who also lost to Willamette and Caltech), lost to La Verne and Redlands...They may very well be better and they can be tough at home, but I don't see them winning either game this weekend.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Pac gets the Whits this weekend. Still not sure what all the fuss is about over the Boxers. They beat the worst team in the MIAC (who also lost to Willamette) and Occidental (who also lost to Willamette and Caltech), lost to La Verne and Redlands...They may very well be better and they can be tough at home, but I don't see them winning either game this weekend.

I thought the fuss was over Pac Lutheran more than Pac.

Blackhawks is right about "style" contributing to Whitworth's success over Whtmn. You see it every year and we talk about it every year, when Whitman has better results early in the season against the same opponents and someone (usually Blackhawks) says, "THIS is the year Whitman knocks off Whitworth, see, look at how much worse they beat team X or team Y." And then someone else comes on and reminds everyone that Whitman's style often exposes weaker teams leading to bigger point differentials...in fact, here is a post from Nov 30, 2014...

Whitman plays a style that exposes teams with lesser talent and over the past several years has given their players and fans a lot of confidence going in to the NWC season. They look at the box scores of games Whitworth has with common opponents and come to the same conclusion that blackhawks is right now. We beat team A by more points than Whitworth did, therefore we are better than Whitworth. Then the season plays out and Whitworth is again on top of the conference and in the national tourney. Maybe it will be different this year...wouldn't hold my breath.

This is pretty much the reason I don't subscribe, or lean on heavily, to two things when I vote in my Top 25 or try and extrapolate when looking at teams prepping for a game: head-to-head should trump all; Team A beat Team B, Team B beat Team C, thus Team A is better than Team C (based on no game). I plan to write more in a blog in the next few days or week on this, but your discussion here is a great point to why I don't buy into those logics all of the time.

[A Buc Forever]

I actually disagree that this is Bridge's best team in W2. Maybe it was just an off night, but WM never really seemed to threaten the Pirates. WW had a pretty comfortable lead all game except for that one run early in the 2nd half. Even when WM tied it, WW then went on a big run to cruise the rest of the way.

WM lays an egg every year somewhere unexpected, so PLU has to be the favorite for that this year right? Meanwhile it's hard to see any team in the NWC beating WW (except maybe @WM) because even when WW doesn't shoot well, they always are tough on the defensive end.

It would be great to see the Whits travel back to the midwest to take on some of those powers. There are direct flights from Spokane to Chicago, and a bunch of great teams are within 3 hours from Chicago (Calvin, Hope, Benedictine, Trine, Augustana, Elmhurst, and Chicago). Why not set up a little yearly tournament where one year WW & WM go to play 2 or 3 of those schools, then in the odd years those schools reciprocate? This almost seems too easy.

Just a few comments on Pinecone's comments:

1.  This may well be WM's best team in awhile. WW was in control of the game because it is WW's best team in awhile. WW is good because they have a lot of off offensive firepower, but they win every night because they are great on defense and they hit the boards hard.
2.  No predicting which team will beat WM.  I agree every WM tends to lay an egg at least once a year. Every team does it.  The 2011 WW team laid a four minute egg in Walla Walla that resulted in the greatest moment in Whitman sports history (except for their mention in Sports Illustrated in 1976). 
3. WW can schedule all those teams next year and they might be crap.  The teams they scheduled this year, were a lot better in the recent past than are this year. I think it was Augustana that they played in the Bay area 6 or 7 years ago.  It was the year after Augustana had a deep run in the tournament.  WW destroyed a very pedestrian Augustana team in front of a raucous crowd that Hayford referred to as "the future residents of the Palo Alto Alcohol Rehab Center."

[steveflegel]

Buc,

Just to clarify, Whitworth and Augustana have never played each other in men's basketball.  The school you are thinking of is Gustavus Adolphus. 

And wasn't it David's high school buddies who were most of that "raucous" crowd 

[A Buc Forever]

Thanks for the correction.  I had the wrong team but the gist was correct. AG was a much better team the year before WW played them.

[(509)Rat]

Pac gets the Whits this weekend. Still not sure what all the fuss is about over the Boxers. They beat the worst team in the MIAC (who also lost to Willamette) and Occidental (who also lost to Willamette and Caltech), lost to La Verne and Redlands...They may very well be better and they can be tough at home, but I don't see them winning either game this weekend.

I thought the fuss was over Pac Lutheran more than Pac.

Blackhawks is right about "style" contributing to Whitworth's success over Whtmn. You see it every year and we talk about it every year, when Whitman has better results early in the season against the same opponents and someone (usually Blackhawks) says, "THIS is the year Whitman knocks off Whitworth, see, look at how much worse they beat team X or team Y." And then someone else comes on and reminds everyone that Whitman's style often exposes weaker teams leading to bigger point differentials...in fact, here is a post from Nov 30, 2014...

Whitman plays a style that exposes teams with lesser talent and over the past several years has given their players and fans a lot of confidence going in to the NWC season. They look at the box scores of games Whitworth has with common opponents and come to the same conclusion that blackhawks is right now. We beat team A by more points than Whitworth did, therefore we are better than Whitworth. Then the season plays out and Whitworth is again on top of the conference and in the national tourney. Maybe it will be different this year...wouldn't hold my breath.

This is pretty much the reason I don't subscribe, or lean on heavily, to two things when I vote in my Top 25 or try and extrapolate when looking at teams prepping for a game: head-to-head should trump all; Team A beat Team B, Team B beat Team C, thus Team A is better than Team C (based on no game). I plan to write more in a blog in the next few days or week on this, but your discussion here is a great point to why I don't buy into those logics all of the time.

The real question is what do you do with your next top 25 if everyone keeps winning in the top 5? Does Elmhurst move up to 1 for beating Augustana even though the rest of their schedule is even weaker than Whitworth's? Does Whitworth move up because they were #2 and didn't lose? Does Augustana stay #1 because you still believe they are the best team and aren't gonna punish em for losing on the road to a conference opponent who is ranked #5 in the country?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Haha! You are the first to ask... and believe it or not, tune into Hoopsville tonight to hear what I am thinking right now. (I had to prerecord the show today due to another commitment, so I know I comment on this in the first block of the show. I would answer you right now, but I am running around to get things done before having to be at a game tonight. I can chat more after the show airs .)

[blackhawks4]

Unlike WW against WM, I think I'm a little bit rattled. Blackhawk made a lot of sense tonight in just about everything he posted. What gives? 

Post that WW shouldn't be #2 in the nation, and you're the biggest idiot walking the planet.  Propose that all NWC teams forfeit their remaining games to Whitworth instead of playing them, and you're a genius.

[Gregory Sager]

The real question is what do you do with your next top 25 if everyone keeps winning in the top 5? Does Elmhurst move up to 1 for beating Augustana even though the rest of their schedule is even weaker than Whitworth's?

Says who?

Does Whitworth move up because they were #2 and didn't lose? Does Augustana stay #1 because you still believe they are the best team and aren't gonna punish em for losing on the road by two points in overtime to a conference opponent who is ranked #5 in the country?

FTFY.

Seriously, though, your last two questions are good ones.

[Pinecone_Curtain]

Post that WW shouldn't be #2 in the nation, and you're the biggest idiot walking the planet.  Propose that all NWC teams forfeit their remaining games to Whitworth instead of playing them, and you're a genius.

FTR I've never disagreed about WW being too high. And I was talking more about your game analysis and your suggestion that the Whits go to the midwest instead of south. But if you want to go ahead and give WW wins the rest of the season, I won't argue 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Does Whitworth move up because they were #2 and didn't lose? Does Augustana stay #1 because you still believe they are the best team and aren't gonna punish em for losing on the road by two points in overtime to a conference opponent who is ranked #5 in the country?

FTFY.

Seriously, though, your last two questions are good ones.

Trust me... I was thinking about those two questions in the middle of last night's game (well not the outcome one, that certainly game later). I touched on it on Hoopsville tonight.

[iwumichigander]

Does Whitworth move up because they were #2 and didn't lose? Does Augustana stay #1 because you still believe they are the best team and aren't gonna punish em for losing on the road by two points in overtime to a conference opponent who is ranked #5 in the country?

FTFY.

Seriously, though, your last two questions are good ones.

Trust me... I was thinking about those two questions in the middle of last night's game (well not the outcome one, that certainly game later). I touched on it on Hoopsville tonight.

And, how far do you move Elmhurst up with win over #1 Augustana?  Is Elmhurst SOS better than #s 2-4 ?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Does Whitworth move up because they were #2 and didn't lose? Does Augustana stay #1 because you still believe they are the best team and aren't gonna punish em for losing on the road by two points in overtime to a conference opponent who is ranked #5 in the country?

FTFY.

Seriously, though, your last two questions are good ones.

Trust me... I was thinking about those two questions in the middle of last night's game (well not the outcome one, that certainly game later). I touched on it on Hoopsville tonight.

And, how far do you move Elmhurst up with win over #1 Augustana?  Is Elmhurst SOS better than #s 2-4 ?

Well first... we have a few more days of basketball that could change a lot.

Secondly... I don't know. I have had it spinning in my head since the OT buzzer sounded. But that is why I state often that determining were teams fit in the poll is not just comparing them to one other team (i.e. Augustana to Elmhurst; Elmhurst to Benedictine). There are always numerous teams in play and that makes it very complicated. I was enjoying the fact my Top 5 or 6 was relatively stable. Now the entire Top 25 is wide open.

[D O.C.]

Well, lookee there. WILDCATS hold on to steal one from the Knights in Mac.

[wildcat11]

Great win for the 'Cats tonight over PLU. 53-51.  Linfield's frosh point Romeo led the way with for the 'Cats with 26.