MBB: Northwest Conference

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Im curious about Amherst, Williams, and Augustana -- how do they stack up to Whitman?  Also, Wittenburg?  Wash U?  Anybody seen these teams play and have an opinion?

Amherst... eh. Nothing to write home about. Nice run at the end here, but they aren't probably getting in the NCAA tournament unless they win the NESCAC AQ.

Williams, pretty good. Remember, final four team last year. They are playing without their best player and have shown signs of struggles. That said, this is about when they really found their legs last season.

Augustana? Streaky this year. Finishing with the easier side of the CCIW schedule will give them confidence and possibly playing at home for the conference tournament. Never count them out. They would have caused a lot of problems for Whitman last year in the championship if the match-up materialized. That said, playing without a key player (Wofford) for much of the season due to injury. I still think they are trying to find a solution there. Last year, they lost the same player for other reasons, but had a guy they could lean on (Johnson). Sadly for them, he graduated.

Regarding WW hosting the 1st round:

I understand the NCAA saving money by only having to fly two teams, and that its WMN women's turn to host if they outlast Fox.  But 2 follow up questions.

There is a real chance Whitman women still host even if they lose to GFU again. I need to see this week's rankings to understand that better, but it could happen.

1.  Does the committee look at having WW host as doing a favor to WMN by lessening their travel (assuming WMN stays undefeated #1)?

Not a factor. They will look at someone to host that works for the bracket. Nothing else. Whitworth also has to be in the tournament (yes, we can assume they will be; we can also caution they may not be). Who hosts in the stead of a team who can't is based on what works for the bracket and geography more than anything. I am sure the committee would like to make sure their top team (assuming, though I am not sure who they consider their top team, not the D3hoops.com poll's top team which is irrelevant) has treated as such, but sometimes they can only do so much.

2.  WW's key wins are North Central Illinois and Wheaton.  Is that really enough to hang your hat on for hosting?  I would think if WMN doesnt host that theres a chance they fly both WMN and WW to a different pod

Doesn't matter in the situation we are talking about here. If the team designated to host can't, what options does the committee have. If they have another place they can bus to without using another flight, the decision is made. The match-ups won't change, Whitman would still get the better first-round match-up, but whether Whitworth is "worthy" to host is not doesn't matter.

This happens all of the time. Teams have had to host across the country for high-"seeded" teams who can't be at home because of the other gender. It has happened at a number of schools this year. Oddly, this is about the only situation we see right now where it might happen.

BTW - back to your money comment... the NCAA (and really, it's DIII) isn't "saving" money. They are simply limited budgetaryily. They aren't allowed to spend too much or on certain things. They aren't "saving" money for something else. Those are two very different things.

A sidenote:  I would argue that two teams from same conference having to play each other (such as Whitman vs. Whitworth) is a more difficult draw in the ncaa tourney than playing the rest of the field because the teams are SO familiar with each other.  In those early rounds, i think its easier for WMN/WW to play a team that its never played before 

There is a reason there is a rule to avoid conference match-ups in the first round and even if the second, if possible. Yes, we all agree that playing a conference opponent for a third or fourth time in the opening weekend is very tough. I have seen it from a personal point of view two or three times. It sucks.

That said, there are a lot of early-round games that have a lot of familiarity to them. I think all games are tough at that point... though, conference games suck and we had one on the east coast in the second round last year.

As for it being "easier" to play a team that it has never played before... some coaches might say it is just as difficult. It is a fresh scout and looking at something you haven't seen before. Nothing about that is easy.

[Gregory Sager]

WW's key wins are North Central Illinois and Wheaton.

Wheaton beat Whitworth, not the other way around.

[CMSfan]

Anybody else paying attention to the SCIAC?  Claremont is back.  They are a TOUGH first round game for one of the Whits.  Beat WW last year.

I am! CMS is looking very strong now that they are healthy. This team looks stronger to me than the team that beat WW last year. That team was missing Scott Lynds, their starting PG, but he's back this year and playing really well. With him, Scarlett, and Morris, plus several other solid players, I think they have a chance to make a run in the tournament if they can avoid Whitman.

[blackhawks4]

McHugh thanks for the feedback.  Maybe its just me but those national powerhouses always seem to be really tough come tourney time.  I'm more concerned about them than the non regulars with better records.

Trying not to be too repetitive here in my questions, but i'd be curious to hear what you speculate the committee's logic would be if Whitman men stay undefeated but cannot host because Whitman women are hosting.  A or B:

A.
1.  Whitman men can't host, so they need to travel.
2.  Whitworth is close, but only has one significant win all year. 
3.  Let's send Whitworth and Whitman travelling--likely to different locations--where a top seeded team hosts and another team can travel by bus.  (I picture Whitworth being a 5-7 seed in the national tourney--especially if drop 3 to whitman)

B

1.  Whitman men can't host, so they need to travel. 
2.  Let's send them to Whitworth because its close.

Of course this also brings Claremont who will have to travel east too.  (They are back!)  Just beat Occi twice.  Dangerous team

[Smitty Oom]

McHugh thanks for the feedback.  Maybe its just me but those national powerhouses always seem to be really tough come tourney time.  I'm more concerned about them than the non regulars with better records.

Trying not to be too repetitive here in my questions, but i'd be curious to hear what you speculate the committee's logic would be if Whitman men stay undefeated but cannot host because Whitman women are hosting.  A or B:

A.
1.  Whitman men can't host, so they need to travel.
2.  Whitworth is close, but only has one significant win all year. 
3.  Let's send Whitworth and Whitman travelling--likely to different locations--where a top seeded team hosts and another team can travel by bus.  (I picture Whitworth being a 5-7 seed in the national tourney--especially if drop 3 to whitman)

B

1.  Whitman men can't host, so they need to travel. 
2.  Let's send them to Whitworth because its close.

Of course this also brings Claremont who will have to travel east too.  (They are back!)  Just beat Occi twice.  Dangerous team

Don't look now, but St. Olaf and St. John's might both be ahead of Whitworth in this weeks regional ranks. Not saying it will happen, but should Whitman men not be able to host, the Oles might end up with a better resume for hosting than the bucs from Spokane. Also, I don't think that a second West team HAS to host a first weekend pod if it doesn't seem to workout. Although I don't know enough about the puzzle to say where that extra pod would land.

I think I may be able to answer those questions by channeling my inner D-Mac:

The committee will not look at distance whitman needs to travel if they cant host themselves.
Whitworth will only end up hosting should their resume, and their resume alone, be strong enough to merit hosting responsiblity.
Also, they don't seed teams. At least directly. Yes they try to even out the pods, which seeding would do as well, but there is more that comes into play in D3 when compared to the D1 "march madness" with budget and location and distance from other schools.

[blackhawks4]

Based on your response Smitty, if Whitman can't host,  I think both teams end up traveling in first round.

There may not be official seedings, but the bracket certainly resembles it...

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Just for reference, if a team deserving of hosting can't host because of the other gender having priority, they typically try NOT to put the pod at the #2 seed.  However, in the case of the NWC, geography matters.  If they're flying two teams to Washington, Whitworth will host, so they can keep a drive in there.  If, however, there's two driveable Texas teams, they might send both NWC teams there and move the SCIAC elsewhere.  Still a lot of basketball left to be played, though.

[Pat Coleman]

Agreed -- two teams flying to Washington is seen as the same cost as two teams flying from Washington. And Ryan is right that they try not to put the pod at the No. 2 seed if the No. 1 seed is prohibited from hosting.

[Pat Coleman]

These things are here:
http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2018/02/men-regional-rankings-second

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

As has been explained, but I want to put it in another way...

If the top ranked team cannot host (Whitman), they tend to look at the rest of the pod they had destined for that school and see who else can host that pod without changing anything. Oh look, there is Whitworth. They do NOT default to the next highest ranked team in the region and shuffle EVERYTHING to make it work. That isn't feasible even for the East Coast teams.

Many times a team ranked 5, 6, 7 or the like is hosting the top seed because of these circumstances. Rarely the 3 or 4 ranked suddenly hosts because of it (unless they were in the pod to begin with).

Whitworth will host or both teams are going to catching a flight.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I think we're talking across definitions, Dave.  I was referring strictly to the pod - four teams 1-4.  Often they try not to move the host to the #2, but rather the 3 or 4, so a team doesn't lose the home court advantage and have it immediately given to their toughest competitor.  I'm not sure how strict that is, though.

I'm also curious if Whitman would rather play at Whitworth and be closer to home or fly somewhere and not play at their rival's place?

Also, if it ends up that there's two teams in Washington, two in Texas, plus the SCIAC, they might actually get to split up the NWC teams and send them different places!

[WUPHF]

Thinking out loud to myself, I would like to see how Emory matches up with that Whitman press. 

The NCAA is clearly aware of all those direct flights between Seattle and Atlanta as that has happened twice in recent years.

[Andy Jamison - Walla Walla Wildcat]

Seriously... the News Resister has nothing better to do than to write an entire article whining about travel and how it affects the poor Wildcats!  Do they need some tissues?

It would seem to make absolute sense to have Linfield play UPS/PLU on consecutive nights. Same with the Missionaries and Pirates.  But  with Linfield, Pacific, GFU, Willamette, and L&C all within 60 minutes of each other there is always going to be an odd team out. 

I've been impressed with the progress of the Cats on the court.  They now look the part with D3 caliber players throughout the roster.  They have some guys who I'd love to see play football. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think we're talking across definitions, Dave.  I was referring strictly to the pod - four teams 1-4.  Often they try not to move the host to the #2, but rather the 3 or 4, so a team doesn't lose the home court advantage and have it immediately given to their toughest competitor.  I'm not sure how strict that is, though.

I'm also curious if Whitman would rather play at Whitworth and be closer to home or fly somewhere and not play at their rival's place?

Also, if it ends up that there's two teams in Washington, two in Texas, plus the SCIAC, they might actually get to split up the NWC teams and send them different places!

I don't believe there is anything thinking to the direct seeding ranking... I believe the decision is based on which places makes the most sense to host (or who ever put in their paperwork) where they can still get the pod there with as few problems as possible. Pretty sure I can go through the brackets in the last few years and find hosts that were the second best team in the group. Williams/Scranton comes to mind recently.

As for the Texas/Washington thought... yep, possible, but I don't think the committee would take the top team in the country and fly them to, say, Sul Ross just because they can. I suspect they would want to at least give the top team their own time zone and the like.

[(509)Rat]

Leaving Whitworth out of the tourney (I'm sure someone has an idea of how likely that is assuming they win every game until a 3rd loss against Whitman in the conference tourney championship game), seems like it would make things easier for the committee in terms of flights. Finding pods for Whitman and SCIAC champ vs both Whits and SCIAC champ seems like it would be easier regardless of how many or which TX teams make it.

Reading through other threads it sounds like Whitworth getting a pool C makes them an odds on favorite to host the pod though? In order to keep Whitman closer to home? Well, and I'd think it would save a flight in virtually every selection scenario.