MBB: Northwest Conference

[oldnwcer]

(509)rat, I have to agree with bigfella, LC got what they wanted out of their offense, they just couldn't make a shot or a free throw.   Not to take anything away from Hayford.  He did a great job this year and it looks like they got a great draw in St Louis, but Gaillard did a lot more with a lot less, I think.  Good Luck Bucs!

[(509)Rat]

LC shot just over 40% from the free throw line...which is bad...but they only shot 60% as a team on the season.  My point is that they are a bad free-throw shooting team to begin with so I don't think the fact that they shot poorly from the free throw line has anything to do with the outcome of this game.  In fact, if they shoot what they've shot all year they still lose the game by 3 points despite the miraculous shot by taboni at the end of the game.  In my opinion LC did not get the shots they wanted.  Everything was contested...Tillery's slashing to the basket followed by a kick out for a wide open three was not open once.  In fact, when tillery drove to the basket Whitworth did a great job of helping the guard and rotating down to cover up the low post guy that Tillery was looking for.  Everything LC shot was contested.  Did you notice the matchup problems Whitworth was having with Rivera when the starter Hasenfus was gaurding him???  That's exactly what LC wanted too...its just too bad that Whitworth subbed in Willamsen and Jurich to slow him down.  I don't think that LC's shooting woes (other than the free throws) had nearly as much to do with just poor shooting (berggren, robinowitz, and toboni were hitting everything they threw up during warmups and at the end of halftime) as it did with the fact every three-pointer LC took had a Whitworth hand/body, thrown up in its path.  The only ones that went uncontested were Tillery's but he didn't even want to take them.  Anyways, I don't think you guys are giving enough credit to Whitworth's coaches, weck included.  Like I said, even with the free throws, LC would not have won this game...Whitworth was much more efficient, and since they've lead the league and ben tops in the nation in offensive efficiency I'm starting to think this isn't just a coincidence.  Rather it is the system Hayford has in place.

[sciacguru]

Just a side note for you Pirate fans.  I am sure the phone for the Asst Coach at CLU was ringing off the hook today as he is a Depauw alumnus.  I dont think you guys are too worried with big wins over CLU the past few years.  But I am sure Depauw is getting some detailed info.

[bigfella]

Congrats to WW on their win.  It is was a well deserved win Saturday.  And, it is good that WW has great fans with a greater bias.  The points on LC's freethrow and FG shooting are moot, for it matters not if a player hits every shot in warm-ups or no shots in warm-ups.  The game still has to be played.  Anyone that has played will attest to that.  The LC team looked like a team that played Wednesday against a good team.  Hayford is a great coach and he deserves COY honors.  My point was not to say that Hayford didn't do a good job, as he did a great job.  But, he did not out coach anyone.  There weren't any great coaching moves to stop anyone.  hapenfuss got subbed out because LC put quick fouls on him, not because Hayford saw a great missmatch out there.  There weren't any new tweaks that were put in for this game.  WW played that same defenses and had the same match-ups.  The kids decided that game.  The seniors showed that they were seniors.  And, I loved watching it.   

We can break the game down in pieces, but it doesn't matter.  The better team won on that night.  Let's hope they represent our league well, which I know they will. 

[bbaddict]

You're right big fella.  It was a close game, that ultimately was won by the seniors.  Whitworth played better defense than I've seen them play and LC didn't connect as well as usual.  Seemed like they tried too many 3's when they should've set up more shots (7-34 for 3 pointers).  It really seemed like anyone's BB game until the last 2 minutes.  In fact, the WW crowd was pretty quiet at times -- the smaller LC crowd was pretty noisy in the fieldhouse! 

I'm just sorry that LC didn't get an At Large bid because they're really good & their season shouldn't be over.  Sounds to me like UPSoundlogs was implying that the LC team was bad/mediocre and only got where they were with good coaching.  There's a lot of talent on that team and if anyone should know that, the UPS fans should, because they beat you twice this season.  Using Soundlogs' logic, Hayford's the better coach, because his team (who didn't beat UPS at all) won out.

And just to set the record straight -- I never said that All Conference spots should be "ALL" about individual stats, just that sometimes players get overlooked because they aren't on the top teams.  I think that's unfortunate, but it's probably always going to be that way.

As for Whitworth getting an easier path than Oxy -- what about UW-Stevens Point?  Again, UPS should know all about that team!

[Gregory Sager]

I don't think it's paranoia, Sager.  I think there's plenty of evidence to support the idea that men's teams in the West, particularly the NWC don't get the respect they deserve.  (One exception is Linfield football.) The Women's committee picked George Fox as a 1st round site.  And UPS women hosted soccer this year.  Ask the teams from Abilene, TX if that's geographically in sync.  It just ain't about geography!!

Unfortunately, bbaddict, it's mostly about geography. It evens says as much in the D3 men's basketball handbook. On page 17 it specifically states, "geographical proximity may take precedence over seeding." So, yes, once you know that the D3 tournament is all about saving travel money first and foremost, it is paranoia to blame the lack of NWC hosting opportunities upon a lack of respect.

[UPSoundLogs]

Ok,Ok,Ok...looks like we have some word bending from bbaddict here that needs clearing up . 

"Sounds to me like UPSoundlogs was implying that the LC team was bad/mediocre and only got where they were with good coaching.  There's a lot of talent on that team and if anyone should know that, the UPS fans should, because they beat you twice this season.  Using Soundlogs' logic, Hayford's the better coach, because his team (who didn't beat UPS at all) won out. "  - bbaddict

Whoa...I think you've confused yourself.  Rather than argue this point into the ground, I will simply state, rather than "imply," what I truly think. 

I think LC is a very good team this year, as I have said many times throughout the season.  They had a great year and deserve recognition.  However, In the pre-season coaches poll they were picked 4th...to me that equals mediocre!  Their record from last year was 11-14...to me that equals bad.  HENCE my bad/mediocre comment.  So...for this year I strongly feel that LC's coach did a more impressive coaching job than WW's because he took a "supposed" bad/mediocre team and brought them to an elite level .  WW has a great team and coach, but in my opinion COTY goes to LC.   

Also you said...

"The All Conference team should be about individual stats, not how the team did." -bbaddict

If you post a statement like this, it would seem that you think individual stats take the cake when considering all conference.  As I am not able to read your mind, I can't tell that you didn't really mean what you posted...for this reason I said earlier that I desagree with you.  But since you set the record straight...

"And just to set the record straight -- I never said that All Conference spots should be "ALL" about individual stats" - bbaddict (to me that is exactly the opposite of your previous post)

...then I guess we are in agreement . 

GO WW(NWC)!!!

[bigfella]

The criteria for all-conference teams have baffled me for years.  It should be stats and importance to team, but some coaches pick players who they like.  And, they pass up on players who they don't like.  Everyone can have an argument, but in truth, the players know who put in work and who didn't.

One last point on WW, though.  They can play against fast teams and slow teams because of their size and strength plus athleticism.  They are made for the Tourny.  They are going to give whoever they play fits because of the way they play on offense.  They are well coached as evident by the COY honor(just kidding, please no more two page posts)..... This team can make a good run.

[pineconefan]

Bigfella, it was a fun game to watch last Saturday.  Even as a Pirate fan, I felt bad for L&C on all the missed free throws.  I could see the frustration on the staff's faces as they misses continued to mount...

But you guys have built yourself a potential powerhouse.  With the changes that have come in the administration at L&C, I think we'll see a return to the days of L&C being a continual favorite in the league (I remember your days as a dominator of the NWC Bigfella!)

And I agree with your analysis of the Bucs.  They will present match up problems for whoever they play.  If they can keep up the defensive intensity, and execute their offense - they've got a real shot to win some games.

[(509)Rat]

LC took 34 3-pointers, and I agree with addict that this appeared to be more than they wanted to.  Plus they only average around 27 3 pointers per game, which is a lot but no where near 34...bad coaching.  The LC coached looked very frustrated throughout the game and both he and the assistant yelled at players for not following their instructions after a timeout.  If you cant get your players to stick to your gameplan...bad coaching.

Whitworth played a man defense against LC for the first time this season...They wouldn't do it against UPS and it hurt them, just as that 1-2-2 or 3-2 (whatever you want to call it) zone they ran down at LC hurt them.  I would constitute switching your defense up from the last game with an opponent, and putting in a few wrinkles to defend the one thing you think they can hurt you with when you do go man (Tillery's quickness and their ability to get open looks around the perimeter), plus having a different outcome in the game against said opponent is a good coaching move.  Not one 3 pointer (other than Tillery's which they gave him) went uncontested...has Whitworth been able to do that against UPS or LC this season???  No, they haven't...and don't play this one off as the players playing well, you can only do so much if your coach hasn't developed a scheme to make that happen.

I do however, agree with bigfella that Whitworth is great looking tourney team.  Hasenfus can bang around with big men, and willemsen and Jurich can guard teams with  out a ture post player.  They can score from anywhere on the court and they play smart basketball for the most part.  They are a fundamentally sound team (thanks to their coach), and they have already proven they can travel halfway accross the country and beat a good team on their home court.  

[pineconefan]

SCIACguru -

"Just a side note for you Pirate fans.  I am sure the phone for the Asst Coach at CLU was ringing off the hook today as he is a Depauw alumnus.  I dont think you guys are too worried with big wins over CLU the past few years.  But I am sure Depauw is getting some detailed info."

The basketball coaching fraternity is so inbred, every staff has somebody they can contact for information on virtually any team anywhere.  The Whitworth staff has close contacts with Trinity - which is in the same league as DePauw, so I am sure Hayford is getting a good scouting report on DePauw as well.

[pineconefan]

509 -

I think your assessment is oversimplified.  There was no "Bad Coaching" in Saturday's game.  In fact, as a guys whose seen almost 20 years of basketball in this league, I can say without question that Gaillard is one of the best in the history of the conference.

Also, Whitworth did run some man to man defense in the loss at L&C.

[Sabretooth Tiger]

Originally posted on the SCIAC board, thought you all might appreciate this info in case you're not visiting SoCal too much: 

It looks like Amir Mazarei (Redlands), Sam Betty (Oxy) and Brian Williams (Whitworth) are in the hunt for an invitation to the 2007 College Basketball Invitational for top seniors from NCAA Div. II, III and the NAIA to be held in April.

Here's the web link for more information:

http://www.mccarthysports.com/player_list.html

Congrats and good luck to these fine DIII left coasters.

[(509)Rat]

Also, Whitworth did run some man to man defense in the loss at L&C.

I don't remember any man to man in that game, but I believe you that they did...the key word in your post though is "some".  It didn't work in the last game and Hayford made adjustments.  I also don't think LC was ready for a Whitworth team with a healthy JJ.  They also didn't do nearly as good of a job getting someone in Jon Youngs face.  I believe that Gaillard is a good coach and one of the top in the conference, but after saturday's game I felt like Hayford did a better job.  LC could have won that game if they would have done a few things differently and those things can be attributed to coaching.

Anyways, thanks a lot Tooth for the info on those guys, and best of luck to Occidental in the tourney...represent the west coast well.

[bigfella]

Whitworth ran a man defense in every game LC played this year.  And, it wasn't some, but most in the games at LC and Saturday.  The zone was ridiculous and I agree that a coach should abandon a defense that didn't work.  If a team takes 27 threes per game, it is actually easy for them to shoot 34.  Especially if you are down at the end, hence trying to catch up.  The thing I love about coaching is the different styles.  Everyone has different ways to approaching the game and how they teach it.  If Gaillard did such a bad job of coaching, then it should have been a 20 point game then.  Hey, you were at home waiting and didn't play on Wednesday.  Don't get it twisted.  If you have the player of the year, three first teamers, and the coach of the year, it shouldn't have been a game.  In fact, how did WW lose a game this year?  I feel sorry for the players since they get no credit for winning the game.  If you have played in a game like that, I think you woould see it otherwise.  It was a good game with two contrasting styles of play.  Fun to watch and good for our conference.  The way you(rat) look at it is you opinion, but I hope you are not a coach.