MBB: Northwest Conference

[John Gleich]

I agree with the first part of your post... it was not an impressive moment.  I really wonder what he was trying to prove by making the statement?

I wonder why he thinks he's an expert on DIII athletics.  He went to an NAIA school for his undergrad, coached at that same school (Azusa Pacific), then coached at U of Sioux Falls (another NAIA school), and coached in some California High schools.

Does he not even realize that the WIAC, as a conference has been D-III longer than the NWC?  And certain members (Whitewater, Platteville) have been dual members for over 25 and 15 years, respectively?

It can't be the size that he's worried about... Wash U's own conference-mate NYU has 17,000 students.  It can't be because the WIAC is public.  There are plenty other public universities in D-III as well.  It can't even be because of the success... conferences like the CCIW have had lots of success on a yearly basis as well (it's called a winning tradition).

I don't think that this speaks negatively on the NWC as much as it does on him, individually.  I mean, there's a possibility that he was misquoted... but if this was the case, then he definately would want his name cleared... I'd expect the paper to run a retraction if it's the case...

It's easy to take pot shots and then run away and hide... I wonder if he'll bother to follow up on his statements on a forum like this?

[UPSoundLogs]

PointSpecial,

Thank you for giving some insight from a WIACer point of view.  Again, I have no idea why Hayford would make such a statement.  Obviously the WIAC is a powerhouse conference that has been a roadblock and source of frustration for us here in the NWC, but in my opinion it is no different than the ACC,SEC,Pac10, etc. in D1.  It takes a special team from one of the smaller confences to beat a great team from a power conference.  That's just the way it is!!!  I actually think it is a good thing to have teams like Steven's Point and leagues like the WIAC and CCIW in D3 because it shows the kind of talent small schools(school first) are able to produce.  Plus, it makes success on a national level that much more impressive when a team from a lesser conference beats them. 

[(509)Rat]

Should Hayford had said what he said when he said it?  No.  That was a dumb move.  And I agree with that part of UPSoundLogs post.  And it does make us sound like whineres,  But is what he said true, and probably a thought that many dIII coaches have?  Yes.  Think of it this way.  What is the biggest problem in recruiting a DII athlete in the NWC?

1.  Money...believe it or not, not everyone can afford $33,000 a year to go to college (the only reason I did was because of just enough scholarships and a sacrifice by taking student loans that could have been avoided at a state school.

2.  Ok, so the money's not an issue for you?  Well then you better have a 3.6 GPA in high school and at least a 1200 on your SATs (out of 1600, I don't know a comparable score on the new one).  Whitworth's incoming freshman class two years ago had an average GPA of 3.7 and an average SAT of 1230 out of 1600.  That was average and I can guarantee that all of the other NWC schools are the same.  Can any of the UW schools or Rowan say that?

3.  great you got in, you've got the money...but now there's at least 4-5 other schools t higher Divisions or competing NAIA that can offer you money and a chance to play...Wisconson doesn't have that.  From what I understand its Madison or DIII.

4.  The budget I'm sure is an issue since the UW schools don't have to rely on donations from alum to maintain facilities and equipment.  But I don't know much info on this topic so I'll leave it at that.

Look.  The WIAC schools have 7,000-9,000 undergrads and cost not much more than $10,000 a year.  Compare that to an enrollment of 2,200 and $33,000.  Now any small private school can be competitive in DIII, I think Mt Union has proved that...but all of the recruiting disadvantages in Division III sports really don't apply to the public schools participating in Division III athletics.  Whitworth has been very competitive on a national level in numerous sports for the last several years, but I can guarantee you that their coaches work very hard and can become very frustrated with the problems they have recruiting year in and year out.

*Note-I am not condoning anything Hayford said...like I said earlier I think it was a dumb move on his part.  All this post is trying to accomplish is to attempt to show you why any DIII coach would say or think something like this.

[UPSoundLogs]

Rat,

I completely agree with what you said about money, test scores, gpa, competing schools, etc...and I realize that you also don't agree with what hayford said.  And I also don't want to beat this into the ground because its just one quote from an article...but for the sake of discussion on this quite board...

Take Gonzage for example, they have MANY,MANY,MANY disadvantages(money,tv time, famous alumni, location, and the list goes on and on) to a school like UNC, Duke, Texas, etc.  however, what do they do each and every year?  They play as many big time schools as they possibley can fit into their schedule.  They don't complain that UNC has too big of an advantage and they should become an NBA team(yes I know that's extreme).  They go to play them AT UNC because A) its a great atmosphere B) its a great challenge C)it brings them respect D) They believe that they can beat them!!!  In my opinion that is what college sports are all about. 
It doesn't necessarily take a team full of NBA prospects that has the most money to win. 

So back to D3...I think it is great that a team like UPS/WW/LC, from the NWC, can go take on a team like Wisconsin Stevens Point or Illinios Wesleyan.  Even though UPS is at a disadvantage and may not win, they can compete and have a great experience playing against the best of the best.  It would be much, much, much more boring if the WIAC and CCIW were D2 and we had to play against a bunch of Caltech's in the D3 national tourney. 

That's how I see it anyways. 

[diehardfan]

First off, I want to echo what Point Special said about not drawing any sort of conclusion about the NWC from the Whitworth coach. As an ethnic minority and a female sports addict that also loves to bake and other random girly things, I am not too into stereotypes.

Secondly, coaches say things out of frustration... I'm really not even willing to make a judgment on the actual person who made the quote either.

I do however, want to state that in a general sense, that such a lack of self control is something you would never want to see in a coach. These guys are entrusted with the sacred responsibility of teaching the game of life through the game of basketball. Teaching your athletes to let their adversities get the better of them (and subsequently act unfairly or unkindly) is hopefully not one of those lessons being taught in any program. I wouldn't wish that kind of coach on anyone... but especially not a DIII college team. Hopefully having discipline in your actions and self control with your words is a central message being taught every day in practice. Any DIII collage coach that doesn't care more about their character and the model it is for the character of their players more than the W-L column and their own convoluted sense of fairness clearly doesn't understand what DIII sports are all about and should probably sit down with the Cal Tech coach for some remedial lessons on how to coach DIII. That is why I hope, and heck, assume, that this kind of action isn't the norm for the Whitworth coach. Those kinds of words aren't befitting of a strong program and the high caliber student athletes found at Whitworth.

[John Gleich]

Rat,

I completely agree with what you said about money, test scores, gpa, competing schools, etc...and I realize that you also don't agree with what hayford said.  And I also don't want to beat this into the ground because its just one quote from an article...but for the sake of discussion on this quite board...

Take Gonzage for example, they have MANY,MANY,MANY disadvantages(money,tv time, famous alumni, location, and the list goes on and on) to a school like UNC, Duke, Texas, etc.  however, what do they do each and every year?  They play as many big time schools as they possibley can fit into their schedule.  They don't complain that UNC has too big of an advantage and they should become an NBA team(yes I know that's extreme).  They go to play them AT UNC because A) its a great atmosphere B) its a great challenge C)it brings them respect D) They believe that they can beat them!!!  In my opinion that is what college sports are all about. 
It doesn't necessarily take a team full of NBA prospects that has the most money to win. 

So back to D3...I think it is great that a team like UPS/WW/LC, from the NWC, can go take on a team like Wisconsin Stevens Point or Illinios Wesleyan.  Even though UPS is at a disadvantage and may not win, they can compete and have a great experience playing against the best of the best.  It would be much, much, much more boring if the WIAC and CCIW were D2 and we had to play against a bunch of Caltech's in the D3 national tourney. 

That's how I see it anyways. 

I've never really understood people's arguments that certain conferences/schools "don't belong."  While there may be advantages and disadvantages of going to a public or private school, when it gets right down to it, we're all going after the same goal.  We all need to work hard or get our butts kicked by the competition.  His comments really are an insult to the UWSP players who ARE DIII student-athletes.  The values of DIII are the same values held by the institutions in the WIAC in the same manner that they are in the NWC.  To frankly state that someone doesn't belong is getting far away from the spirit of DIII.

[diehardfan]

I need to completely reject the premises of the Whitworth coach's statements... sorry my fellow left coaster friends.

I applaud the Wisconsin schools for going the DIII route... I wish all schools would be DIII.

However, get this: the CCIW, my conference, went 6-1 against the WIAC this year. They are clearly not unbeatable. But maybe the makeup of the CCIW is really different than the NWC? Well, no, not at all. We are basically all highly selective colleges. If you look at the US News current college rankings for liberal arts colleges, you will find 3 NWC schools, and 3 CCIW schools in the top 100.

A cursory glace at the list of member institutions for NAIA and DII shows that there are 15 such institutions in all of Oregon and Washington. There are 4 in Wisconsin. However, there are 11 in Illinois alone. In terms of states that neighbor CCIW schools that are perennial contenders for the CCIW title? Right around the corner from the Chicago area schools is Indiana, which has 14 institutions in DII or NAIA. Iowa, which is right around the corner from Augustana (our two time consecutive CCIW regular season champ, who only lost to Stevens Point by three earlier this year) has 13.

Take Wheaton college, my college, as a case study... just cause it's the one I know best. The average SAT score is 1330, and the average GPA is 3.73. We have an enrollment of about 2300. We have 30+ national merit finalists in our incoming classes every year... and the athletes we recruit are frequently were valedictorians, etc. My brother, who played football at Wheaton, had a 1430 on his SATs (and only took them once without studying for them beforehand). These stories are not uncommon. One of the starters on our basketball team this year posted a 3.93 GPA at Wheaton which earned him an Academic AA nod.  Our tuition is 30,000. We are very selective and expensive, and are smack in the middle of a whole bunch of NAIA and DII schools within an hour or two, yet we have managed to earn votes in the D3hoops.com Top 25 poll over 80 times anyway... but we're a little unique in that we are basically the most selective Christian college in the country and we recruit nationally (although Westmont, a CA NAIA school, does frequently steal recruits not too interested in living in minus temperatures 7 months of the year).

Lets try IWU instead then, also in the CCIW, who made it to the Final Four last year after embarrassing the WIAC rep Whitewater that hosting their sectionals (85-71!). IWU is even more expensive than us, and they are ranked very similarly to us. They recruit locally, and succeed at doing so quite dramatically. It would take a long time to list the number of IWU AAs and post season wins, so we won't do it. Plus, who cares about them anyway. 8) (Incidentally, random fact about IWU, they lost their coach to a DII school, and like 8 of their 9 top guys last year... and then proceeded to beat Whitewater at Whitewater again this year on opening weekend. Whitewater then finished 4th in the WIAC, IWU 7th in the CCIW (11-14 record over all!). Fun stuff.

I am the first to get annoyed when people in my conference wax poetic about just how darn awesome they are, so that's not my point. My point is simply this.... there really isn't much to whine about. Lets face it, there just isn't. The real lesson is:

1)   Sell the strengths of the program to recruits well.
2)   Coach well and instill a crazy awesome work ethic into your players.
3)   Build the capacity of your programs as necessary.

If you build it, the banners will come. Silencing the Goliaths on the court is a whole lot more classy and fun than whining that you aren't good enough off the court. (No offense intended to my Pointer friend, of course, but it's true.)

[Titan Q]

So back to D3...I think it is great that a team like UPS/WW/LC, from the NWC, can go take on a team like Wisconsin Stevens Point or Illinios Wesleyan.  Even though UPS is at a disadvantage and may not win, they can compete and have a great experience playing against the best of the best.

That's how I see it anyways. 

Why would those NWC schools be at a "disadvantage" vs Illinois Wesleyan?  IWU is a very selective liberal arts school of 2000 students that costs about $35,000/year...sounds a lot like the NWC picture you are painting. 

You are making it sound like Puget Sound vs IWU is Gonzaga vs North Carolina.

[UPSoundLogs]

OK OK OK...

This is exactly what I didn't want to happen.  I just wanted some opinions on one quote, that in my opinion was not the most appropriate thing for whitworths's coach to say.  I'm not trying to step on toes or pass judgement on which team has more of an advantage one way or the other. 

My Gonzage/UNC example was simply a far fetched situation that is similar to the topic at hand.  A school from a lesser conference(Gonzaga from the WCC) taking on a school from a dominant conference(UNC from the ACC).  In that sense it is a lot like UPS from the NWC(a lesser conference) taking on IWU from the CCIW(a power conference).  There is no need to take offense, I was only trying to give a like example without filling in all the details and taking ten days to write my post. 

The bottom line here is...

I think Hayford's statement was way off and I think its great to have teams like Steven's Point in D3.

[diehardfan]

I'm not trying to step on toes or pass judgement on which team has more of an advantage one way or the other....

I don't feel like my toes were stepped on, I doubt anyone else does either.

I think Hayford's statement was way off and I think its great to have teams like Steven's Point in D3.

Amen to that. As a fan of the game who got to watch their championship teams play 5-6 times.... it was like a thing of beauty. The way that they passed and played like a team was like poetry.

Incidentally, it took me ten and a half days two write my post. Lets not undercut my effort here.

[UPSoundLogs]

DHF,

I knew you probably wouldn't take offense, you seem pretty easy going.  I was more referring to TitanQ, I didn't want him/her thinking I was taking a shot at IWU.  As you can probably tell by my karma, I haven't had the best luck making friendly conversation with Hall of Famers .  I must have crazy view points or something because they always seem to find some reason to disagree with me...and my karma takes the brunt of it ...Oh well.

And for the record...I appreciate the 10 and a half days that you dedicated to posting!

[diehardfan]

LOL! Q is a guy! If you ever listen to Hoopsville, he's the Midwest/West reporter...

Point Special and Titan Q are both easygoing, nice guys... both of whom I've talked to on numerous occasions at games. They both know their stuff, so you have to be prepared for them to correct you. However, I'm pretty sure you didn't upset them... I think it's just that being male and former college athletes, however, they don't feel quite comfortable with the cutsy smilies as I do, so perhaps the tone of their posts weren't as clear. When I first started posting on the CCIW board, there were only two smilies... and I used them liberally and got a lot of flack for it. I do think it helps in terms of clarifying mood and tone though and wish more people did it.

Thanks for the compliment, incidentally. I think it's the SoCal sunshine getting to me... it's hard to be annoyed at the world when it's sunny and between 60-90 year round. Pretty soon my hair will be blond and I will be surfing and saying duuuude all the time. But seriously, how could I be offended by a guy who has an Office Space quote in his signature? That's one seriously funny movie.

On a completely unrelated note, you know how people in WA and OR despise the people who move up there from SoCal? Will the fact that I've lived here for the last year and a half since college (despite being a native of Virginia who has always wanted to live in the Pacific Northwest) hinder my social life if I ever finally get up there? Just curious...

[UPSoundLogs]

DHF-

Being that I am a frequent visitor of SoCal and NorCal and the vast majority of my friends either currently live, are from, or went to school in California I would have to say that I'm completely at ease with...you people .  After all, I can't fault anybody(yourself included) for wanting to live in the year round sunshine of Southern California.  Personally, I happen to like the Bay Area much more...but I think in your case I could make an exception and say that you would be excepted in the Northwest without a problem.  There's a ton of you(californian's) already up here anyways, one more couldn't hurt...you gotta be a UPS fan though.

[(509)Rat]

I'm not going to defend anything I said in my post but some of you need to read it a little more closely...especially the wheaton poster.  Anyways, did anyone actually see where that interview came from?  The Washington U. student paper.  This raises two questions...why would Hayford do an interview during a national tourney with a student at Washington U.?  And, does anyone actually have a link to the paper where the quote came from and who wrote the article?  This is starting to sound more and more like a load of Bull, but it doesn't matter now cuz it has been posted.

[UPSoundLogs]

Rat,

There's a link on the WIAC board.