MBB: Northwest Conference

[Mr. Ypsi]

Facilities will often be a plus.  Lower tuition will generally be a plus (though the net cost differential is far less than the 'retail' differential).  But 'funding' is a very iffy advantage for the state schools in this era where 42 states are in deficit, and d3 state schools generally have endowments in 7 digits, not 8, 9, or 10 like many (certainly not all) privates.

And while I have no direct knowledge, I'll guess that it may be easier to get into a WIAC school than into (at least some of) NWC schools.  If so, that could widen the recruiting pool a great deal.

[OxyBob]

And while I have no direct knowledge, I'll guess that it may be easier to get into a WIAC school than into (at least some of) NWC schools.  If so, that could widen the recruiting pool a great deal.

According to the Princeton Review, 30% of the incoming freshmen at UW-Whitewater had GPAs *under* 3.0. Repeat: THIRTY PERCENT of the freshmen at Whitewater didn't carry a B average in high school. Only 9% of the Whitewater freshmen were in the top 10th of their HS class. At UW-Stevens Point only 15% were in the top 10th, and at Platteville it was only only 12%. By contrast, 40% of the freshmen at Puget Sound were in the top 10th of their HS class, more than the 3 UW schools combined.

Admissions Selectivity Ratings
Lewis & Clark 94
Puget Sound 90
Whitworth 89
Linfield 86
.
.
.
Stevens Point 75
Platteville 66
Whitewater 66

With low admissions standards, low in-state tuition, and large student bodies, the students at UW schools are like the girls at a Linfield frat party -- dumb, cheap and plentiful.

OxyBob

[Pat Coleman]

Thankfully there are institutions that are not so elitist that they refuse to educate people who didn't get a B average in high school. 

[Gregory Sager]

I'd not thought about this before, but eyeballing things it seems like there are quite a few more public institutions with D3 athletic programs in the midwest than there are in the west.  I wonder how this shapes recruiting.....

Actually, there are a lot more D3 public schools in the northeast than there are in the midwest. The only midwestern D3 publics are the nine WIAC schools. In the northeast, there's the SUNYAC schools, the NJAC schools, the CUNYAC schools, the Little Eight schools, the MASCAC schools, etc.

There aren't many D2 and NAIA schools in the midwest.  So it does give the WIAC schools somewhat of an advantage, because they don't have to complete against other schools giving scholorships.

There are actually quite a few D2s and NAIAs in the midwest. Three of D2's largest leagues are midwest-based, and there are lots of NAIA leagues as well. It's just that Wisconsin in particular has a relative dearth of small-college scholarship schools.

All that being said...UPS went to UW-Stout last year and dominated them.  Honestly, I think the top of the WIAC is exceptionally good, and UPS would have to play one heck of a game to beat them.  But, the middle to bottom half aren't anything special, I think UPS would have lots of success against them.

You're badly underestimating the middle and bottom of the WIAC, LogShow. The reason why the WIAC is so dominant every year is because it's strong from top to bottom. Go to the schedules pages and check out the overall WIAC records over the past few seasons by clicking on the standings link. You'll be amazed at the non-conference records that the bottom half of the WIAC has racked up.

I think there are only 2 or 3 D2 schools in the entire state of Wisconsin(Viterbo, Parkside for sure).  This is the WIAC's biggest advantage coupled with the lower than avg tuition vs most D3 privates.

UW-Parkside is the only D2 school in l'etat de fromage. Viterbo is an NAIA school, as is Cardinal Stritch (a Milwaukee-based member of the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference). I don't know if those two schools give out basketball scholies, and if they do, how much they give out. I do know that neither Viterbo nor Cardinal Stritch ever puts a team on the floor that's any match for a WIAC school.

Yeah, I'd say that low tuition and the relative lack of small-college scholarship competition within Wisconsin are two of the WIAC's four biggest advantages. The other two are superior facilities (as compared to local D3 privates) and tradition -- many WIAC schools have long histories of success both on the D3 and the NAIA levels, going back decades, and they're relatively familiar parts of the Wisconsin winter sports landscape.

Facilities will often be a plus.  Lower tuition will generally be a plus (though the net cost differential is far less than the 'retail' differential).

Short-term, yes. Long-term, no. You might not be paying a huge amount more out-of-pocket to go to a private than a public, but those loans that you'll have to take out to attend a private will come due sooner than you think.

But 'funding' is a very iffy advantage for the state schools in this era where 42 states are in deficit, and d3 state schools generally have endowments in 7 digits, not 8, 9, or 10 like many (certainly not all) privates.

Very true as far as state funding issues are concerned. But you might be surprised at some of the WIAC endowments, Chuck:

UWEC	29.7m
UWSP	15.6m
UWW	14.3m
UWL	11.0m
UWSup	7.7m
UWP	2.7m
UWO	0.35m
UWSt	n/a
UWRF	n/a

While substantially less than MWC endowments, those WIAC figures are fairly comparable to the war chests of their in-state NAthCon neighbors.

With low admissions standards, low in-state tuition, and large student bodies, the students at UW schools are like the girls at a Linfield frat party -- dumb, cheap and plentiful.

That Dale Carnegie course is working wonders for you, O-Bob.

[Bearcat Press]

With low admissions standards, low in-state tuition, and large student bodies, the students at UW schools are like the girls at a Linfield frat party -- dumb, cheap and plentiful.

OxyBob

OB, you just made my year!

[LogShow]

Maybe I am underestimating them...but I guess that's just what I think.  LC, who has done slightly above average gave UW-WW a good game earlier this year.  I mean, it is tough to compare unless you actually play each other.  I would love for UPS to have had a shot to play the top 3 teams from the WIAC this year.  And I am sure they will in the NCAA. 

In the past UPS has had some success against WIAC schools, other then UW-SP.  They beat UW-Stout handily last year.  And also beat UW-River Falls, back when they had Melzer and won the WIAC regular season title.

[Gregory Sager]

Two games out of an entire decade is a mighty small sample size, LS. But even if those wins over UW-Stout in '07-'08 and UWRF in '03-'04 are conceded to be an accurate barometer, it really says more about how good Puget Sound has been in recent seasons than it does about the WIAC as a whole.

[LogShow]

Two games out of an entire decade is a mighty small sample size, LS. But even if those wins over UW-Stout in '07-'08 and UWRF in '03-'04 are conceded to be an accurate barometer, it really says more about how good Puget Sound has been in recent seasons than it does about the WIAC as a whole.

It is a small sample size.  I guess what I was really trying to get at is the fact that it would be very interesting to see how UPS would fair in the WIAC.  I wasn't trying to argue that the middle/bottom of the WIAC is bad, just that I think UPS would be able to compete with the top teams in the WIAC.

[CalCat]

With low admissions standards, low in-state tuition, and large student bodies, the students at UW schools are like the girls at a Linfield frat party -- dumb, cheap and plentiful.

OxyBob


  See you on the 19th Bob

[nwhoops1903]

I think facilities -- at some D3 state schools but certainly not all -- are one place that a state school could have a big advantage.

Sure and 5000 fans in the stands for a Tournament game might help as well.  But I dont know and don't care to look it up...How big are the facilities for hoops in the WIAC?

As for recruiting, entrance standards play into the makeup of a team and program on so many levels.  You can specifically recruit a player but that player must adapt to more than a basketball court at the school of their choice.   The breath and depth of the offerings at a school of 12,000 MUST be greater than of one a third it's size.  If the WIAC is an oddball and doesn't fit up or down or left or right because of state politics...fine but I know for a fact there are quite a few D2 schools in Washington, Oregon and California that have VERY similiar profiles to those of WIAC institutions.

Finally, what is the WIAC's record against D2 schools over the past say 10 years?  Someone knows this.

[Mr. Ypsi]

The CCIW consists of private, selective, expensive, small schools, who (unlike most folks griping about WIAC schools) frequently go head-to-head in recruiting battles.  Almost never do I see CCIW posters whining that the WIAC should go d2.

We'd rather beat 'em (which we do fairly often) than get rid of 'em.

[nwhoops1903]

The CCIW consists of private, selective, expensive, small schools, who (unlike most folks griping about WIAC schools) frequently go head-to-head in recruiting battles.  Almost never do I see CCIW posters whining that the WIAC should go d2.

We'd rather beat 'em (which we do fairly often) than get rid of 'em.

You can accuse me of whining, knock yourself out.  I am just trying to figure out why one conference has dominated a division of NCAA basketball for a decade or longer and do they have any particular advantage.  Your CCIW is a very good conference, I am glad you are so proud of it.  How often do you beat the WIAC?

[Mr. Ypsi]

The CCIW consists of private, selective, expensive, small schools, who (unlike most folks griping about WIAC schools) frequently go head-to-head in recruiting battles.  Almost never do I see CCIW posters whining that the WIAC should go d2.

We'd rather beat 'em (which we do fairly often) than get rid of 'em.

You can accuse me of whining, knock yourself out.  I am just trying to figure out why one conference has dominated a division of NCAA basketball for a decade or longer and do they have any particular advantage.  Your CCIW is a very good conference, I am glad you are so proud of it.  How often do you beat the WIAC?

In men's bball, I'd imagine it is right around 50-50.

The WIAC DOES have some inherent advantages, but I don't think they have dominated d3 men's basketball (certainly not to the extent that Mount Union (a small, private school, with a lousy basketball team ) has dominated d3 football.

[Bearcat Press]

Back to some NWC talk, below is my recap of last weekend's games for the Bearcats:

http://www.willamettecollegian.com/2009/02/18/mitchell-ushers-men-back-into-playoff-race/

[Pio20]

How about this scenario? Conference finishes with UPS in first at 16-0. WW beats LC to finish at 12-4. LC beats Whitman and loses to WW to finish in third at 10-6. Linfield or Willamette finishes in fourth at 9-7. Then the fun starts in the conference playoffs...UPS beats Linfield or Willamette and LC goes to Spokompton and beats WW then takes down UPS in the conference final to win the auto-bid to the tournament. Meanwhile, UPS gets in because they still finish up with just one in-region loss. WW gets in with an at-large bid as they finish 20-5 and and LC gets the auto bid as the NWC playoff champ. It is crazy, but it could happen! It might not play out exactly that way but I guess my point is that we could possibly get three teams in if UPS and WW get at large bids and another team gets the auto-bid. That being said...what are everyone's thoughts on WW getting an at-large bid? Is there a chance for them if they were to lose before the conference final or even in the conference final to UPS?