MBB: Northwest Conference

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just showing I think through what I post and comment on and show my work...

And you do realize there are 25 voters, right? I'm just one and happen to be the one who is willing to tell you how I vote?

[blackhawks4]

I do appreciate the work and I did enjoy reading the response...just a bit too "whiny worth" for me.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Not sure why you think I would be whining... I honestly don't have a dog in this.

[A Buc Forever]

McHugh,

Thanks for a very complete review of Whitworth's resume over the last 10 years. Even though it has been an impressive 10 year run, Blackhawks is still doesn't believe they deserve a top 10 ranking.  That's his opinion and that is always the way it goes with rankings.  I happen to agree with you and I find it amazing how well Whitworth does each year in the tournament given that they have to travel and play in the home gym of their opponents once past the first couple rounds.  I can say that having watched  many of those road playoff games, I believe WW would have won many of those games on neutral courts.  Winning a tournament is tough and single elimination tournaments  (especially ones set up like  the DIII tourney)  don't often achieve the goal of having the "best" team win.  That's why the NBA plays 5 and 7 game series to select their champions.  All that said, the rankings and the tournament are a lot of fun.  Thanks again for a great review.

Back to the present.  When is Kenny Love coming back?  Anyone?

[HoopsCoachG]

Does anybody know when Kenny love is coming back?

He should be back for the game on Saturday.

[D O.C.]

Go 'CATS!

That's one thing different this year.
Thank you for the WW decade bringing me up to speed.

[blackhawks4]

It just sounds like 10 years of excuses to me.  How about instead of justifying why they can't get the job done, they just get the job done?  A #2 team in the country is pounding on the championship doorstep.  The NWC can't even get out of the field of 16.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

But here's the problem with that thinking... you are assuming the brackets are even. They simply aren't in Division III. As much as the committee tries to have a balanced bracket... there is only so much you can do in the confines of the NCAA structure.

If Whitworth was coming out of the Northwest, East, Atlantic, and maybe even the Mid-Atlantic regions... they would have probably advanced to Salem on several occasions. Instead, they have to come through a side of the bracket that features consistently some of the best teams in the country ... and where you will meet those teams as early as ROUND ONE or TWO in the tournament. Then in the simple fact that almost every single team Whitworth has had to face is either playing the second weekend at home... or traveling a short distance (especially in comparison to Whitworth) for that game. Whitworth almost always is on the road in the second weekend (2013 being an exception not only for Whitworth, but for the entire tournament) and is almost always traveling at least halfway across the country. Cross-country travel isn't easy, especially eastward, when you don't have a D1 budget and school is actually important (so you can't take a few days to adjust).

Again, I pointed out how many times Whitworth has lost to the national runner up... or lost to the eventual national champs... or lost to a team who immediately lost to the eventual national champs. It isn't like Whitworth is getting an easy bracket year in and year out.

Should the number two team be in Salem every year? No. Because the bracket doesn't allow it every.

Should the number two team beat teams ranked behind them? Maybe. But this is a one-and-down tournament and more times than not a team ranked higher probably would have won in a series. The single game brings in too many "what ifs" and crazy bounces.

And by the way... Whitworth has gotten out of the Sweet 16, but I guess doing it once in ten years isn't good enough. Believe it or not... the consistently of reaching the Elite 16 years is not easy. Even St. Thomas lost in the first round last year and other top teams have lost early more times than not. I don't have the time to do it now, but I would be interested to see who has been to the Sweet 16 the most in the past decade. I would put money on Northeast teams like Amherst leading the way and see Central and West teams not having as high a number as you would think per YOUR reasoning that national ranking trumps all rational thinking.

[Gregory Sager]

And by the way... Whitworth has gotten out of the Sweet 16, but I guess doing it once in ten years isn't good enough. Believe it or not... the consistently of reaching the Elite 16 years is not easy. Even St. Thomas lost in the first round last year

So did UW-Whitewater, for that matter -- and UWW was the defending national champion.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

And by the way... Whitworth has gotten out of the Sweet 16, but I guess doing it once in ten years isn't good enough. Believe it or not... the consistently of reaching the Elite 16 years is not easy. Even St. Thomas lost in the first round last year

So did UW-Whitewater, for that matter -- and UWW was the defending national champion.

Exactly!

[blackhawks4]

If Whitworth was coming out of the Northwest, East, Atlantic, and maybe even the Mid-Atlantic regions... they would have probably advanced to Salem on several occasions. Instead, they have to come through a side of the bracket that features consistently some of the best teams in the country ...

Again, I pointed out how many times Whitworth has lost to the national runner up... or lost to the eventual national champs... or lost to a team who immediately lost to the eventual national champs. It isn't like Whitworth is getting an easy bracket year in and year out.

McHugh, you tell a compelling story, but I'm curious why you only tell half?  You boast of the runner-ups who eliminate WW, but you don't mention that nearly every year, WW bullies around our little brother the SCIAC before bowing out of the tourney.  In fact, the Elite 8 appearance, was that not the byproduct of a first round bye, and then the winner of the Chapman/SCIAC game??  In 10 years, has WW ever beat a team with a top 10 national ranking?  Top 15 ranking?  I'm going to go out on a limb here and say "never."

I'm glad you're on record stating that WW deserves to be the #2 team in the nation.  But with 0 wins over top 10 teams in 10 years, I don't understand your justification.     

BTW, WW and WMN both win 20+ games this year.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

What I find funny is you ignore the fact they make it to the Elite 8, but then bring it up trying to say they didn't beat anyone to get there and getting there meant nothing ("FINE, they got to the Elite 8... but they beat no one, so it doesn't count!")... and then ignore who they beat in the Sweet 16 to advance to the Elite 8. But in reality... you have no idea who they beat and who you are trying to "put down" in the process.

When we talk about 2011, I forgot to mention in my recap that beating Chapman was a big win. Chapman was ranked #12 going into the tournament. They had blitzed their way through the season including about half the NWC. That might have been the best Chapman team in their history, or a close second to the team the following season. After that win, Whitworth beat #11 Marietta to advance to the Elite 8.

So that's two Top 15 wins. Sure they don't have any Top 10 wins... but to be honest, not many people outside of the Top 10 have wins over Top 10 teams in the NCAA tournament. You keep raising the bar to make your argument seem to make sense when in reality you are basically starting to say no one deserves to be in the Top 25 at all by your standards.

(Quick side note, it is amazing that most people hate if voters take into account past years because it either keeps a team in the poll who shouldn't be there or keeps a team out of the poll who has no history. You are one of the VERY rare individuals who insists that ten years of data be considered when voting in a weekly Top 25 poll in any particular season.)

There are a number of SCIAC teams who are pretty good over the years, but like Whitworth, they have the EXACT same road in the NCAA tournament almost every ... single ... season. NWC vs SCIAC in first and/or second round. There is NO way you can sit there and say either conference is down, teams are not good, etc., etc., etc., when your data set is the same two conferences playing every single year. If they ever got the chance to play other conferences (and once in a blue moon it happens) in the opening weekend and there was enough information to make a judgement... I would. But you simply can't.

I realize you want to keep bashing them... go ahead. I realize you might be trying to discredit me... go ahead, except know I am not ignoring any part of the story. I filled it out in detail. You just seem to be choosing to read only the parts you care about while ignoring, when you want to, the other parts. Every win in the last decade is in there... every lose is in there as well. I would love to see Whitworth come through the Northeast some day, but that never is going to happen.

One last point... I tend to see a lot of Whitworth through the years. While I can't get to the Seattle area to a game, I watch a number of games online... and I have seen them a fair number of times in person (thanks to events like the D3hoops.com Classic). I think they would match up very well with teams in the east. I have also said I can understand an argument that they aren't the second best team in the country. That's where I have them now, but certainly subject to change. However, to say they aren't a Top 25 team is ludicrous.When I also have several head coaches who have seen them in person contacting me explaining why they think they are a Top 5 team... I take that more seriously than someone with an ax to grind.

[(509)Rat]

Oh don't bother with things like logic and reason...we've tried

[blackhawks4]

You keep raising the bar to make your argument seem to make sense when in reality you are basically starting to say no one deserves to be in the Top 25 at all by your standards...to say they aren't a Top 25 team is ludicrous. 

Never said this.  I've said WW, WMN, and Cal Lu (SCIAC) are top 25 teams.  Until NWC proves otherwise, they peak out at #15. 

You are one of the VERY rare individuals who insists that ten years of data be considered when voting in a weekly Top 25 poll in any particular season.)

Why don't we take this a step further.  I typed "D3 Men's Basketball National Champions" into the ole' google machine, and found an interesting fact.  It appears that since 1975, which was as far as the records go back, there hasn't been a single Champion OR Runner-Up from a state west of Minnesota...ever.  That's 40 years. 

So, in 10 years, WW has never beaten a top 10 team (thanks for the correction), and in 40 years, no team from the West Coast has EVER finished in the top 2 in the country. 

But WW deserves a #2 ranking, and I'm the irrational one.  Got it.  Thanks.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

This will probably be my last response... because you clearly have an ax to grind...

Why don't we take this a step further.  I typed "D3 Men's Basketball National Champions" into the ole' google machine, and found an interesting fact.  It appears that since 1975, which was as far as the records go back, there hasn't been a single Champion OR Runner-Up from a state west of Minnesota...ever.  That's 40 years. 

So, in 10 years, WW has never beaten a top 10 team (thanks for the correction), and in 40 years, no team from the West Coast has EVER finished in the top 2 in the country. 

Um... seriously?! There are maybe 30 teams west of Minnesota. 90% of Division III is east of the Mississippi and in the history of the division that number has been a lot smaller... that is a very small percentage and a very large expectation. And of course, I mentioned them already in this "discussion," but Mary Hardin-Baylor made the championship game in Atlanta in 2013 (going in unranked).

And of course, you don't have to Google search that information, there is a far easier location to find it all here: All-time Division III basketball champions.

You of course... raised the bar once again with this one because we have gone from having a team needing to get past the Sweet 16 first. Of course Whitworth got to the Elite 8, so you raised the bar to the championship game (after I pointed out that Whitworth usually lost to THE team who got to the title game or a team who lost the next round to THE team who got to the title game). Now, we have shown that four teams from west of Minnesota have gotten to the final four at least seven times. (Side note: Seven final fours in the 40 years of the final four is a higher percentage - almost double - than there are Division III teams west of the Mississippi River/Minnesota.)

While you may not agree you are raising the bar, you are. You have an ax to grind. You don't like Whitworth for many reasons and that is clouding your judgement. I don't have a dog in the race (literally, my alma mater hasn't been in the national conversation is nearly 20 years), so my judgement isn't jaded.

You are the only person I know who wants ten years of data to indicate if a team should be nationally ranked this past week. You don't like the ranking: got it. You aren't going to change the voter's minds, I am pretty sure. Though, it's laughable you want Whitman nationally ranked. By your standards (ten years of post-season play), why?! They have proven they can win games against easy competition, but either can't get into the NCAA tournament because they can't beat Whitman when it really matters or put a resume together to get into the tournament as an at-large team in the first place. And when/if they do get into the tournament... how far do they go? You are knocking Whitworth and yet, they have done far better than Whitman in the last twenty years.

Moving on... I have a busy set of weeks ahead. Enjoy your holidays and stop grinding your ax... it isn't getting you anywhere.

By the way, thanks, Steve!