MBB: Northwest Conference

[SpringSt7]

Ironically enough it felt like at times that the best thing keeping Pomona or Claremont McKenna from making it out of the first weekend and giving themselves a shot at Salem was having to play Whitman in the second round. Despite the fact that Bridgeland is now moving to their conference, I think it will actually help the whole league much in the way that Benedictine and NWU have. This is a plus for the SCIAC in my book.

[Greek Tragedy]

Doesn't the SCIAC basically have the same NCAA tournament travel problems that the NWC has?

[Gregory Sager]

Doesn't the SCIAC basically have the same NCAA tournament travel problems that the NWC has?

It's an obstacle. Lots of schools have obstacles. It's certainly not an insurmountable one.

It really just comes down to the two sectional rounds. That's where a premier team from the West Coast is at a disadvantage, because those are the only two rounds in which that team is likely to have to get on a plane while comparable teams won't. But lots and lots of teams have won sectionals on the road before. Look no further than last year, in which two of the four sectionals were won by road teams. And in both instances, the sectional winner knocked off the sectional host; Wheaton beat Augustana in the round of sixteen at Augie's gym, 93-79, and Christopher Newport beat Hamilton on the Conts' home floor, 75-67, also in the round of sixteen.

[Greek Tragedy]

Ok, it just seemed like you were implying he might have a better chance to make the Final Four going to Redlands in the SCIAC than staying with Whitman in the NWC because of the conference move, like they don't have the same travel obstacles. That's all. Maybe I read that wrong, but that was my impression. I suppose you're saying he'll have better recruiting tools because of the location, but he seemed to do fine up north too, both at UPS and Whitman.

[Gregory Sager]

No, it has nothing at all to do with the travel obstacles. That's not what I was saying. After all, West Coast is West Coast. But Redlands, CA is a better base than Walla Walla, WA if you're trying to build a national championship program, for the reason I already stated: Redlands, CA is located in one of the most densely-populated areas of the country (and one with relatively few small-college basketball programs, as well), while Walla Walla, WA is located in a very sparsely-populated region.

I suppose you're saying he'll have better recruiting tools because of the location, but he seemed to do fine up north too, both at UPS and Whitman.

... which is proof positive of what a good recruiter he is. Now he'll get the chance to use those skills in a much more fertile locale.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

From what I've been told by some "off air" ... Bridgeland has been stealing recruits from the SCIAC for years especially from California. Now he is in the same area and able to keep them now at Redlands. If he can continue his good recruiting at Redlands, the SCIAC is going to lose recruits to their own.

SCIAC has also been changing recruiting rules and that now benefits Bridgeland.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

You also have to look at scheduling.  It's much cheaper to fly out of LA airports than Walla Walla if you want to put an east coast tournament on the schedule.  It's also easier (and cheaper) to convince teams to travel into sunny SoCal than Walla Walla in the winter.

Not that those were necessarily considerations, but they are facts in favor of this being an easier place to set a team up for national success.

[old_hooper]

The SCIAC has always had to compete for players with the GSAC one of the better NAIA conferences in the country.  Few years back a number of members went D2.  What doesn't change all of those schools will continue to battle for same recruits in SoCal where they can offer help with partial scholarships.  Bridgeland did a good job recruiting kids from CA to the northwest.  He has left D3 programs in better shape then when he took them over.  It will be fun to watch his impact on the Redlands program and competing at the national level that he did at Whitman.

[Gregory Sager]

The SCIAC has always had to compete for players with the GSAC one of the better NAIA conferences in the country.  Few years back a number of members went D2.  What doesn't change all of those schools will continue to battle for same recruits in SoCal where they can offer help with partial scholarships.

Again, though, we're talking about a situation in which there are 25 million people within 200 miles of the Redlands campus. Competing with the GSAC is not a big deal, because there's so much talent to go around in southern California. As I said, it's an underserved area if you look at the number of high school basketball players per small-college basketball institutions in SoCal. That ratio is much larger in terms of players to schools than it is within the 200-mile radius of Chicagoland or metro NYC.

[Greek Tragedy]

No offense to the SCIAC then, but shouldn't the conference be a lot better nationally?

[SpringSt7]

That would go back to my point of Pomona and Claremont McKenna constantly being beaten out in the second round by Whitman (or Whitworth). I think there is an argument to be made that it is already better nationally, we just don't know it yet. Pomona made it to the Sweet 16 this year, getting to see them play Elmhurst in the Sweet 16 would have been a great litmus test for the conference.

On the other hand, I think there is definitely a case to be made that the combination of the academic strength of the top of the league and the location for really the whole should yield better results. West of WashU and UChicago, are there better D3 schools than Pomona and Claremont McKenna? That, plus the population density that has been noted in here already, should probably bring better results. But it has been tough the last 5+ years with arguably the most successful program in the country knocking on your door every year in the second round.

[Greek Tragedy]

That would go back to my point of Pomona and Claremont McKenna constantly being beaten out in the second round by Whitman (or Whitworth). I think there is an argument to be made that it is already better nationally, we just don't know it yet. Pomona made it to the Sweet 16 this year, getting to see them play Elmhurst in the Sweet 16 would have been a great litmus test for the conference.

On the other hand, I think there is definitely a case to be made that the combination of the academic strength of the top of the league and the location for really the whole should yield better results. West of WashU and UChicago, are there better D3 schools than Pomona and Claremont McKenna? That, plus the population density that has been noted in here already, should probably bring better results. But it has been tough the last 5+ years with arguably the most successful program in the country knocking on your door every year in the second round.

Are you contradicting yourself by saying Whitman or Whitworth has been that successful program, even though they should already be at a disadvantage because of location? On one hand, it's being said that Pomona and Claremont should be better because of the location, but then they'd be better if it wasn't for Whitman/Whitworth? Is it coaching then? Does one school care more about athletics and the basketball program more than another school? Are you saying now that the school with the location advantage finally has the coach that cares more?

[SpringSt7]

I would say I'm being the middle man. In short, Pomona and Claremont are probably better than we already give them credit, but not as good as they should or could be.

[Gregory Sager]

That would go back to my point of Pomona and Claremont McKenna

It's actually Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. The five undergraduate colleges within the Claremont Colleges consortium are divided into two entities for athletics purposes. Pomona College and Pitzer College are paired together as Pomona-Pitzer, and Claremont McKenna College, Harvey Mudd College, and Scripps College combine as Claremont-Mudd-Scripps. The student-athlete population of CMS's men's teams is roughly 90% Claremont McKenna students and 10% Mudd students in most sports, except cross-country, which is mostly Mudd students, and track & field, which has a roughly equal split between the two colleges. (Scripps is all-female, BTW, so the Athenas have an interesting three-way mix in their rosters that the Stags don't.)

constantly being beaten out in the second round by Whitman (or Whitworth). I think there is an argument to be made that it is already better nationally, we just don't know it yet. Pomona made it to the Sweet 16 this year, getting to see them play Elmhurst in the Sweet 16 would have been a great litmus test for the conference.

It's hard to make that argument without any evidence for it. I, too, was looking forward to seeing Elmhurst and Pomona-Pitzer square off; that would've been a golden opportunity for the Sagehens to prove their bona-fides.

On the other hand, I think there is definitely a case to be made that the combination of the academic strength of the top of the league and the location for really the whole should yield better results. West of WashU and UChicago, are there better D3 schools than Pomona and Claremont McKenna? That, plus the population density that has been noted in here already, should probably bring better results. But it has been tough the last 5+ years with arguably the most successful program in the country knocking on your door every year in the second round.

It goes back long before the past five-plus years, though. The SCIAC has been a part of D3 men's basketball since its inception back in the mid-'70s -- an era so lost to the mists of time that it was Whittier, of all programs, that was the conference powerhouse back then in this sport -- and yet, as I said here a month ago, the league has never reached the Final Four in those four and a half decades. And only twice (Whittier in 1981 and Occidental in 2003) has it gotten as far as the Elite Eight. So it can only be said that, at best, Bridgeland-era Whitman has been the insurmountable obstacle that has kept the SCIAC from the realms of glory for a fraction of the league's tenure in D3.

[old_hooper]

No, it has nothing at all to do with the travel obstacles. That's not what I was saying. After all, West Coast is West Coast. But Redlands, CA is a better base than Walla Walla, WA if you're trying to build a national championship program, for the reason I already stated: Redlands, CA is located in one of the most densely-populated areas of the country (and one with relatively few small-college basketball programs, as well), while Walla Walla, WA is located in a very sparsely-populated region.

I suppose you're saying he'll have better recruiting tools because of the location, but he seemed to do fine up north too, both at UPS and Whitman.

... which is proof positive of what a good recruiter he is. Now he'll get the chance to use those skills in a much more fertile locale.

Must bring up the GSAC again.  If it doesn't matter, how can one explain the SCIAC has not made an appearance in a final four since its existance.  The GSAC since 2003 to 2019 has been in the national championship game 8 times.  The brain trust of the SCIAC should find answers.  I agree that the SCIAC has a tremendous opportunity but it has not happened.