MBB: Northwest Conference

[Gregory Sager]

GS-

Thanks for the insight on the differences between D3 and NAIA.  Although I have to say, having played against and watched the best from both D3 and NAIA 1, in my opinion the best D3 teams are superior to the best NAIA 1 teams.  For example, the top teams from the WIAC and CCIW(D3) are better than the top teams from the GSAC(NAIA 1).   Although the quality through the 400 D3 teams is certainly not at the same level as the 99 NAIA 1 teams....just my personal observation .

Sorry, I don't agree. When Calvin won the D3 national championship in '00, the Knights went 30-2 for the season. Those two losses were to GSAC teams, Azusa Pacific and Biola. Last season Wooster made it to the D3 Final Four -- and one of the Scots' three regular-season losses was to Cal Baptist, a team that only finished in a third-place tie in the GSAC. Westmont, a middling program by GSAC standards (the Warriors have only finished as high as second on one occasion in the seven seasons since the GSAC expanded), has given CCIW teams fits over the past decade.

Every December St. Xavier (a fairly strong NAIA-1 program on Chicago's South Side) hosts an eight-team tourney that usually includes several strong teams from that division. I've never attended said tourney, but Posting Up HOF Titan Q has. His father, who attends more small-college basketball games than anyone I know (seriously, he and his wife must go to fifty, sixty games a season), never misses this St. Xavier tourney, since he and his wife are SXU season ticketholders. Both Titan Q and his dad assert that the caliber of these NAIA-1 teams have been significantly superior to even the best D3 teams (although last year's slate doesn't appear to have been anything special) ... and since this is CCIW country and the WIAC is not far away, those of us in these parts have a pretty good idea of what constitutes the best D3 teams.

Titan Q has stated that the very top of NAIA-1 is noticeably better than the top of D3. Since he's a CCIW follower and has attended the last dozen D3 Final Fours in addition to checking out that St. Xavier tourney, he's in a better position to make this statement than you or I or just about anyone else on Posting Up.

The room of which I was speaking -- the "D3 vs. D1, D2, NAIA, NCCAA, USCAA" room under Multi-Regional Topics -- seems to have disappeared for some reason. But rest assured that it'll be revived by Rhodes Scholar once the season starts. In fact, you could probably go into the NJAC or CUNYAC rooms right now and ask Rhodes Scholar to give you the breakdown on how D3 as a whole has performed against NAIA-1 and NAIA-2 over the past five or six seasons since he began compiling daily inter-divisional results. (He's a NYC native, so those two conference rooms are where he hangs out.) You'll be surprised at how poorly D3 has fared against NAIA-1.

[pabegg]

The room of which I was speaking -- the "D3 vs. D1, D2, NAIA, NCCAA, USCAA" room under Multi-Regional Topics -- seems to have disappeared for some reason. But rest assured that it'll be revived by Rhodes Scholar once the season starts. In fact, you could probably go into the NJAC or CUNYAC rooms right now and ask Rhodes Scholar to give you the breakdown on how D3 as a whole has performed against NAIA-1 and NAIA-2 over the past five or six seasons since he began compiling daily inter-divisional results. (He's a NYC native, so those two conference rooms are where he hangs out.) You'll be surprised at how poorly D3 has fared against NAIA-1.

It's still there, just on page 2, since there haven't been any posts since the inter-association schedule ended on 2/24. The last post has the season breakdown.

[UPSoundLogs]

GS-

Im not going to pretend that i have the same sampling/knowledge as you when it comes to D3 vs NAIA comparisons.  In fact, almost all of my NAIA knowledge comes from the west coast (specifically the GSAC), but for the sake of debate ill try to explain my reasoning.....

The GSAC, which if im not mistaken, is the toughest NAIA 1 league nearly every year plays the NWC several times a season.  While I love the NWC, we are no D3 power conference, with the exception of 2-3 very strong teams(I believe we were rated the 6th toughest league last year).  

Taking last season as an example, Lewis and Clark(2nd in NWC/ did't make the national tourney) lost to Concordia(1st in GSAC/ played in the NAIA 1 championship game) by one point 74-75.  And Whitman(the perennial basement dweller of the NWC) beat Biola(generally a tough GSAC team) by a score of 71-69.  

Additionally...because of their close proximity in Southern Cali the SCIAC(D3) and GSAC also play several times a year.  The SCIAC is one of D3's weakest conferences yet they are able to put up a good fight against the GSAC every year.  For example last year La Verne(SCIAC) lost to Westmont(GSAC) by 4 and Pomona(SCIAC) beat Vanguard(GSAC) by 15.  If the NAIA is that much superior, there is no way SCIAC teams should be able to hang. 

I've also seen Azusa Pacific play which is one of the true NAIA 1 powerhouses year in and year out.  In my opinion they dont stack up to the best D3 teams I've seen such as UW Steven's Point and Illinios Wesleyan.

I realize that i haven't used a large sampling here, but hopefully you can see why I think the way i do when it comes to D3 vs. NAIA 1.  Two west coast D3 conferences, which are not the best D3 has to offer, are able to compete with and sometimes beat teams from the best NAIA 1 conference in the nation.  Overall, NAIA may have an edge, but at the top its close from what I've seen.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this?  I've heard this debate many times and it's kind of fun to go back and forth about....plus im bored  .

[Gregory Sager]

The GSAC, which if im not mistaken, is the toughest NAIA 1 league nearly every year

The Sooner Athletic Conference (Oklahoma City, Southern Nazarene, Oklahoma Baptist, John Brown, etc.) would beg to differ, but the GSAC is certainly right up there among NAIA-1 leagues.

plays the NWC several times a season.

No, it doesn't. The NWC and GSAC faced off twice in each of the past two seasons. The two leagues didn't cross paths at all in 2004-05, and they met once apiece in the two seasons before that. That's hardly "several times a season."

Taking last season as an example, Lewis and Clark(2nd in NWC/ did't make the national tourney) lost to Concordia(1st in GSAC/ played in the NAIA 1 championship game) by one point 74-75.  And Whitman(the perennial basement dweller of the NWC) beat Biola(generally a tough GSAC team) by a score of 71-69.

Given the breadth of D3 vs. NAIA-1 competition, the L&C vs. Concordia (CA) result is anomalous. What you didn't mention about the Whitman win over Biola is that, although it probably does qualify as an upset for the NWC, Biola had a very, very bad season by that program's standards. The Eagles finished seventh in the GSAC and sported a losing record both in league play and overall.

Of the six NWC vs. GSAC contests over the past five years, the only NWC win was that Whitman victory last season.

Additionally...because of their close proximity in Southern Cali the SCIAC(D3) and GSAC also play several times a year.  The SCIAC is one of D3's weakest conferences yet they are able to put up a good fight against the GSAC every year.  For example last year La Verne(SCIAC) lost to Westmont(GSAC) by 4 and Pomona(SCIAC) beat Vanguard(GSAC) by 15.  If the NAIA is that much superior, there is no way SCIAC teams should be able to hang. 

You're really reaching with the "put up a good fight against the GSAC" statement. Here's how the SCIAC has fared against the GSAC over the past five seasons:

2006-07	3-8
2005-06	4-5
2004-05	1-7
2003-04	3-8
2002-03	4-4

More importantly, all but two of those 15 SCIAC wins have come against Vanguard and Hope International. Vanguard has finished in the GSAC's first division only once in that five-year span, and has a 32-68 record in GSAC play (58-96 overall) during that span. Hope International is the footwipe of the GSAC; the Royals have won only three GSAC games over the past five years (and keep in mind that GSAC teams play a twenty-game league schedule each season), and they've won only eight games total in league play since they joined the GSAC prior to the 1999-2000 season. I'll do the math for you: Hope International has gone 8-152  (.050) since joining the league.

These are the two teams against whom the SCIAC has had almost all of its success. And yet it's not as though the GSAC is doing the same thing by consistently playing the SCIAC's creampuff; in fact, Caltech is the only SCIAC program that has not played a GSAC school over the past five years.

To sum up: The SCIAC bears a losing record against the GSAC over the past five years in spite of the fact that the two GSAC programs that the SCIAC has played the most has been the two worst programs that the NAIAers have to offer.

I've also seen Azusa Pacific play which is one of the true NAIA 1 powerhouses year in and year out.  In my opinion they dont stack up to the best D3 teams I've seen such as UW Steven's Point and Illinios Wesleyan.

Illinois Wesleyan's radio broadcaster, who also saw both Final Fours in which UWSP walked off with the Walnut & Bronze, doesn't agree with you about the top of NAIA-1 vs. the top of D3.

I realize that i haven't used a large sampling here, but hopefully you can see why I think the way i do when it comes to D3 vs. NAIA 1.  Two west coast D3 conferences, which are not the best D3 has to offer, are able to compete with and sometimes beat teams from the best NAIA 1 conference in the nation.  Overall, NAIA may have an edge, but at the top its close from what I've seen.

Again, your evidence regarding the performance of the NWC and SCIAC against the GSAC is both anecdotal and extremely limited. The preponderance of D3 vs. NAIA-1 results -- and, again, I'd urge you to contact Rhodes Scholar for this info -- tilts heavily in NAIA-1's favor. And the eyewitness opinions of two basketball observers whom I respect, who by your own admission see a broader range of both D3 and NAIA-1 than you, disagree with you about how the top of NAIA-1 stacks up against the top of D3.

[David Collinge]

...Posting Up HOF Titan Q...

But rest assured that it'll be revived by Rhodes Scholar...

Just for consistency's sake, I'll point out that Rhodes Scholar is also a member of the Posting Up Hall of Fame.

[Titan Q]

As Greg mentioned, I have a pretty good feel for both NCAA Division III and NAIA I/ II as I get to see a lot of good teams from both affiliations play each year.  I am the color commentator for Illinois Wesleyan men's basketball but I also get to several NAIA games each year due to a long-time family following of St. Xavier U., a perennially ranked NAIA I program.  (Also, IWU plays Olivet Nazarene every year - ONU is usually ranked in the NAIA I Top 25 and has made several deep tourney runs.)

I feel confident in saying that the very top tier of NAIA I is quite a bit better than the best NCAA Division III team year in, year out.  The teams that Robert Morris (Chicago) has been rolling out the last 3-4 years would dismantle even the best Division III teams...and Robert Morris hasn't won a national title.  They've been ranked #1 in NAIA I for long stretches but have been beaten in the Final Four. 

This all has to be put in perspective though -- that Robert Morris program I speak of features 4 or 5 Division I (major) transfers each season.  One of their recent stars was a bonafide McDonald's All-American...not just a nominee, but actually played in the game.  I think most of the Final Four-caliber NAIA I teams look much more like a good NCAA II team...some even like a mid-major D1 (like Robert Morris and all of their transfers).  A few years back, Lorenzo Gordon from Illinois State transfered to Oklahoma City...Gordon was the "Freshman of the Year" in the Missouri Valley, which is probably the best mid-major league in D1.  D3 teams just do not run into that caliber of transfer.   Check out some of these RMC bios...

http://www.robertmorris.edu/athletics/mensbasketball/chicago/roster/

John Winchester started for Tennessee...Reggie George for Iowa State.

The only Division III team I have ever seen that is on par with a national championship-caliber NAIA I team is the 1996 Rowan team (with 4 or 5 really good D1 transfers)...and I have been to Salem with Illinois Wesleyan four times (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006) and to the D3 Final Four several other times.   

Where things even out is after that "first tier" of NAIA I teams.  From about 6 or 7 all the way down to 25 in each poll, it seems the NAIA I and NCAA D3 teams are pretty even.  IWU has defeated Olivet Nazarene in 16 of the last 17 meetings and again, ONU has been ranked and a tourney team most of those seasons.

[UPSoundLogs]

HOLY COW!!!

Thanks for the reply fellas. 

Greg-

I'm definitely picking up what your putting down, you deserve the win, you put some serious effort into that one.  I was just looking for a little insight...no need to sick the calvary on me.  I appreciate all the stats but geez, take a chill pill bro!  I don't have the knowledge, time, or research to debate with you....not that I would win anyways.  I was just putting my limited observations and opinions out for discussion.  Now that I have been badly shot down and I feel like Jodie Foster in "the accused", I think I'm just gonna take my ball and go home . 

...but ill be back Greg, the next topic of debate is the color of the sky.  I will be taking the position of blue, you will be limited to two paragraphs of only 4 sentences each....AND I can cut and paste from any source I want, without citing my sources .   COME GET IT!!!

Titan Q-

I appreciate the conversational response, its much more warm and fuzzy than Greg's "Law and Order" approach.   Having tangled with some VERY good Illinois Wesleyan teams myself, and knowing that you see a lot of good D3 ball over there in the Midwest... if you say NAIA 1 is better.... well then I guess I believe you.  As I told GS, all I really know of NAIA is the GSAC and since they dont seem THAT much better than even the SCIAC I haven't been all that impressed.  But some of those transfers that Robert Morris has picked up sound serious and your right D3 doesnt see guys like that.  Thanks for your comments. 

[Ralph Turner]

UPSoundLogs,  Please don't feel like you were smash-mouthed by Gregory Sager.

He usually does an outstanding job of researching a question.

We Post Pattern veterans flock to the page where the most recent Grearoy Sager D-III White Paper has been published to learn from his wisdom.

Welcome back to the NWC and the D-3 Message Boards. 

[bigfella]

I am laughing my butt off right now.  Those HOFs go to the limit.  I do remember , though, when a pretty good Lewis & Clark State team, who went 30-2 going into the national tournament, lost their only two games to Lewis & Clark College.  And, those loses were by an average of 20 points.

This is not an argument because I don't want to read "War and Peace" again.  Just remembering a pretty good NAIA school going down to an average D3 squad.

NAIA D1 is better by a long shot for the most part, but isn't comparing apples to oranges being that those schools have the ability to give extra dough to student athletes?  And, I couldn't believe the entrance requirements are anywhere close to those of DIII schools.

GS, can I get you to do some research for a couple of my term papers?  You are pretty thorough. 

[Gregory Sager]

...Posting Up HOF Titan Q...

But rest assured that it'll be revived by Rhodes Scholar...

Just for consistency's sake, I'll point out that Rhodes Scholar is also a member of the Posting Up Hall of Fame.

Well, I wasn't going to name-drop the Hall of Fame other than citing Q's membership, 'cuz I remember the rather ... uh, allergic reaction that some of the NWC posters had to HOFers when we swooped down upon this room last season. But, heck, now that the gang's all here ... 

I'm definitely picking up what your putting down, you deserve the win, you put some serious effort into that one.  I was just looking for a little insight...no need to sick the calvary on me.  I appreciate all the stats but geez, take a chill pill bro!

Honestly, I wasn't trying to deal you a pro wrestling pile-driver or anything like that. As Ralph indicated, this is simply my usual m.o. when there's a topic of debate afoot. My line of thinking is: Where's the evidence? Is it statistical, empirical, and/or accessible? Can I bring it to light as a part of this discussion? Don't take it personally. It's just the way that I operate.

I appreciate the conversational response, its much more warm and fuzzy than Greg's "Law and Order" approach.

I'm actually more of a Jack Webb from Dragnet kind of guy. Just the facts, ma'am.

...but ill be back Greg, the next topic of debate is the color of the sky.  I will be taking the position of blue, you will be limited to two paragraphs of only 4 sentences each....AND I can cut and paste from any source I want, without citing my sources .   COME GET IT!!!

OK, but you've got to give me at least a couple of days to do some research.

This is not an argument because I don't want to read "War and Peace" again.

Andrei dies. Nikolai marries Maria, and they raise Andrei's son. Pierre marries Natasha. The Russians win. The French lose.

See? I'm not afraid of brevity.

NAIA D1 is better by a long shot for the most part, but isn't comparing apples to oranges being that those schools have the ability to give extra dough to student athletes?

Yep.

And, I couldn't believe the entrance requirements are anywhere close to those of DIII schools.

Yep again, mostly.

GS, can I get you to do some research for a couple of my term papers?  You are pretty thorough. 

As Mae West once said, "I may be easy, but I ain't cheap."

[NWCer]

Those Hall of Famers earned their stripes..........  I have a long way to go.....................

Big Fella, you haven't posted in a while, I remember you having good insight on the league back during tourney time.  You have anything for this year for a bored fan like me, any news throughout the league?

[UPSoundLogs]

Ralph-

No problem, im not insulted at all.  I dont even think anything GS said was meant in a bad way...I just got completely dominated in the debate...thats all.  If I couldnt take it I wouldn't dish it out...  I like his moves, and I like his style !!!

BigFella-

Yes!!! I was hoping you would show up sometime soon....now Im just waiting for Bcats.  And no doubt, you guys had some TOUGH Lewis and Clark teams a few years ago....  

Actually, you know what?  That brings up another good debate topic.  What NWC team, from one single year, has been the best? Im not talking about runs over several years...just one team one year.  LC? WW? UPS? Any thoughts?

[bigfella]

GS -

I can dig it.  You do your thing pretty dang solid.

Soundlogs -

I just happened to look at these past posts.  I have been away for too long to have anything concrete, other than it looks like WW has reloaded, and UPS has everyone back, plus some.  Also heard that bartlett from PU is out for the year.  He was a glue type of guy, so that could hurt.  Willamette lost it's best player and have already struggled.  Gordy is the best at using lesser talent, so he will come up with something.  My three questions are:

1) Can WW, who will never have a shortage of talent, have a QB like BWilliams?  I loved JJones, but BW was the heart of that squad.  That's only my opinion, though.   Without a cool PG, WW can struggle.  I only say that because the PG has the ball in his hands a lot in that system.

2) Is UPS going to to run the same style?  It looks like the league is catching up to that style of play and the Saturday games are being much harder to win after expending all that energy the night before.

3) Is anyone going to pay PLU any attention.  They were scary last year and lost only one player.  Plus, they brought in a pretty good group this year from what I have heard.

I am not as close to the action as I was before, but I keep in contact with peopel and will drop some dimes as I get info.

Peace.

[bigfella]

The best teams I have seen would be in order:

1) Willamette 1992 - Mahoney the PG and Greg Ward were studs.  Mahoney was a 6'6" D1 transfer PG that could get down with anyone.  The big fella Ward was a monster and they big strong guards who could shoot it and play.  That team could have beaten any NAIA D1 team in my opinion.  They could play fast or slow, and you were not going to out rebound them.  It was one and out everytime.  And, they did not turn the ball over.  Just a GREAT team.

2) The 1994 LC team with Derek Foster at the PG.  Foster lead the nation in assists and was the best player at that level that year.  Their team lost to a VERY good Northern State team in the Final Four.  That year all five starters averaged between 12 and 20 points per game.  They were good.

3) The WW team that went to the Final game in 1996, I believe.  They had incredible guards and athletic big guys who finished over anyone.  Roman Wickers, who the called "The mouth of the South", was as unstoppable as you could get, and their PG was a general.

4) The 2002 LC team with Scott Davis.  That team had a blend of size and great guard play.  If they had more ball handlers, I would put them above #2 and #3, but they rebounded, shot it, and just played ball.  That team didn't run many plays, as they just played off of Scott.  John Mietus, Chris Spier, Scott D, and Colin Oriard were just tough.

5) a tie between UPS's Final 8 team and WW's team with Gunner Nelson, I believe his name to be.  Both of those team could flat out play.

These are only my opinion and to be honest the teams since we have become D3 aren't as tough as what we had as NAIA.  The overall talent has dropped off.

And last year's WW team probably should be in there, but so should the LC team with Brooks Meek as a senior.  Man, I forgot the Pacific team with Brett Jefferies.  They were good, too.  I can go on for days.

[NWCer]

Wow Big Fella, what a bummer, had no idea Bartlett wouldn't be with my Boxers , any idea why? 

I've heard word out of FG that they're really high on their transfers but didn't get the news about Bartlett - shows you how much I know about the team I'm supposed to represent .  You're right, he was a glue guy, hopefully they can overcome.

So WW is loaded, not surprising, what about your Pios, it's not as if they lose anyone.......

What is it you heard about PLU's new guys?  Do you agree with me that Fox, Whitman, and Linfield will be bringing in the rear this year?