MBB: Northwest Conference

[UPSoundLogs]

First things first, The Loggers looked great in the first 10 minutes of the game against Cal St!!!  Fortunately that's all it took, they were up by about 30 after 10 minutes.  It was a complete shallacking, I was actually kind of dissapointed that it wasnt a closer game.  Once they got ahead by a big margin UPS put it on cruise control and the game got pretty ugly/boring.  I'm not complaining though, another big win in the books.  Williams looked great, as did Foster, Krauel, and Marsh.  This years team plays a much more hard nosed and confident brand of basketball, led by Krauel who is becoming a major enforcer(meaning he plays VERY physical).  I think that's a major reason why they are so much better this year.

Logshow-

I did get a chance to check out the "assist argument" on the front page.  In my opinion its pretty disturbing how much Grinnell caters to individual statistics...I liked how their coach spoke up to defend his team, but I still dont agree with their mindset.  I've never played against a team that runs "the system" but I think there's a major reason why nobody wants to play them, its not basketball .  Obviously everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but just as the Grinnell team and coach have found out, you better be ready to face a lot of criticism when you put personal accolades above teamwork and sportsmanship. 

I'd like to know what some other people think about this topic?  I know what OB thinks about it...he had to live with years of the "traveling freak show" hahahahah

[UPSoundLogs]

OxyBob,

Not to poke at a soft spot or bring up bad memories, but I don't fully understand exactly what "the system" entails.  Being that you had to watch it many times when OXY played Redlands, would you mind giving me a description?  I know that it involves a lot of threes and no defense, but how is the court set up?  I cant picture a team leaving two guys down at one end of the floor   How does that work   Thanks.

[David Collinge]

OxyBob,

Not to poke at a soft spot or bring up bad memories, but I don't fully understand exactly what "the system" entails.  Being that you had to watch it many times when OXY played Redlands, would you mind giving me a description?  I know that it involves a lot of threes and no defense, but how is the court set up?  I cant picture a team leaving two guys down at one end of the floor   How does that work   Thanks.

The "leaving two guys down at one end of the floor" business is not "the System" (although one could argue that, since Grinnell's coach David Arsenault invented "the System," anything he does is part of it by definition.)  I am no fan of "the System," but to my understanding it's inaccurate to say that there's no defense.  In a way it is predicated on defense.  The goal is to get the ball into the offense's hands as quickly as possible, which means they press hard in the backcourt (trying for the steal), and if the other team makes it to the timeline, the defense tries to encourage a quick shot (hence: lots of layups.)  That may not be the most accurate description, but luckily there's a whole thread on this subject HERE.

Of course I too look forward to reading OxyBob's comments on this subject, as on all subjects; also maybe Jordis Rocks, a poster who is or was associated with the Redlands program, I believe.  There's lots of variations on the System out there, but it can be presumed that Redlands' version was fairly close to the original, since their coach (Gary Smith) is now working for Arsenault at Grinnell.

[Titan Q]

The idea behind Grinnell's system is take as many shots as possible and be sure that at least half of them come from behind the 3-point line.

The team averages 101 shots a game, compared with 65.5 shots a game taken by Arizona, the top-ranked team in Division I.

The system involves constant running, so Arseneault substitutes all five players at the first opportunity after 35 seconds of the game have elapsed.

Because players are in the game for only short periods, they're able to go all-out the whole time they're on the floor.

"The other team is usually playing seven guys," said Steve Wood, Grinnell's top scorer at 25.4 points a game. "After a while, they're not able to keep up with the pace."

By contrast, 13 Grinnell players are averaging more than 10 minutes a game.

Grinnell sends most of its players to rebound after a shot and will try to steal the other team's inbounds pass if the shot is made.

Trading 3s for twos

When the other team can break the press, it often leads to uncontested layups. Grinnell allows the easy shots so it can get the ball back quickly and take more 3-pointers. Trading 3-pointers for two-pointers usually works in Grinnell's favor.

http://www.4seasonsbasketball.com/01-Menu/04-Articles/CoachsScrapbook/TheSystem.html

[Titan Q]

Grinnell is rarely competitive against Top 25-caliber teams.  Here is the result of their last NCAA tournament game...

http://www.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2001/030101m.htm 

When they face a top team, the talent disparity at every position on the floor is huge, and no "system" is going to make up for that. 

If you can get the ball in-bounds against Grinnell and your guards are smart and don't panic, you'll end up with an uncontested layup.  IWU had just 14 turnovers in that '01 playoff game, simply because their guards played with composure.  And a good team is able to defend the perimeter against Grinnell -- IWU was bigger, stronger, and faster and held them to 13-52 from 3.

The System is very effective for Grinnell vs teams that are not as talented or equal in talent -- those teams usually panic and turn the ball over 30+ times, and then they don't have the ability to guard Grinnell's 3's.

[LogShow]

While Grinnell does have the distinction of setting records for points and assists...my guess would be they are essentially being the worst team defensively too.  So I am sure their name is in the record book for undesirable records (most points given up in a game/season, lowest fg%, ect.)  Take the good with the bad.  Its like a player saying he led the nation in assists per game...but he doesn't mention that he also lead the nation in turnovers per game.

On a somewhat related sidenote, with Grinnell giving up all those uncontested layups you would think the other team would have a lot of assists.  How ironic would it be if the team they were playing managed to break the in game assist record.  You would think with all those possesions one of the opposing teams has a shot?

[Titan Q]

While Grinnell does have the distinction of setting records for points and assists...my guess would be they are essentially being the worst team defensively too.  So I am sure their name is in the record book for undesirable records (most points given up in a game/season, lowest fg%, ect.)  Take the good with the bad.  Its like a player saying he led the nation in assists per game...but he doesn't mention that he also lead the nation in turnovers per game.

On a somewhat related sidenote, with Grinnell giving up all those uncontested layups you would think the other team would have a lot of assists.  How ironic would it be if the team they were playing managed to break the in game assist record.  You would think with all those possesions one of the opposing teams has a shot?

Average opponent assists per game for the last 3 completed seasons...

2006-07: 26
2005-06: 30
2004-05: 27

Cumulative opponent FG%:

2006-07: .629
2005-06: .615
2004-05: .663

Points allowed per game:

2006-07: 104
2005-06: 113
2004-05: 112

http://www.grinnell.edu/athletics/mbasketball/statistics/

[TeeDub]

OxyBob,

Not to poke at a soft spot or bring up bad memories, but I don't fully understand exactly what "the system" entails.  Being that you had to watch it many times when OXY played Redlands, would you mind giving me a description?  I know that it involves a lot of threes and no defense, but how is the court set up?  I cant picture a team leaving two guys down at one end of the floor   How does that work   Thanks.

The "leaving two guys down at one end of the floor" business is not "the System" (although one could argue that, since Grinnell's coach David Arsenault invented "the System," anything he does is part of it by definition.)  I am no fan of "the System," but to my understanding it's inaccurate to say that there's no defense.  In a way it is predicated on defense.  The goal is to get the ball into the offense's hands as quickly as possible, which means they press hard in the backcourt (trying for the steal), and if the other team makes it to the timeline, the defense tries to encourage a quick shot (hence: lots of layups.)  That may not be the most accurate description, but luckily there's a whole thread on this subject HERE.

Of course I too look forward to reading OxyBob's comments on this subject, as on all subjects; also maybe Jordis Rocks, a poster who is or was associated with the Redlands program, I believe.  There's lots of variations on the System out there, but it can be presumed that Redlands' version was fairly close to the original, since their coach (Gary Smith) is now working for Arsenault at Grinnell.

David, I think you just about hit it...besides, to monopolize this thread with System stuff would not be much fun for those who visit here.  But, please Bob, don't let that keep you from waxing poetic about the 'Traveling Freak Show'.

[LogShow]

I don't mind...there isn't much else to talk about right now.  NWC teams are idle for a few days atleast.  Besides, I have read quite a few of Bob's posts and enjoy them, he usually has a pretty quick wit.

[Tuxguy]

   This is in response to the discussion on Crowds and crowd size at games.

    I'm not sure what the other Colleges do, but at Linfield, starting today, the students are on Christmas break. They come back the first of January for what is called Jan-term. A student can take 1 class for 5 weeks and get a full 3-5 credits. Most take a hard class so as to only study for 1 subject.

   I bring this up because many, not all, but many take a class that may travel over seas, or just not take a class at all, which means empty stands for 5 weeks.

   Any one else have the same problem?

[Gregory Sager]

   This is in response to the discussion on Crowds and crowd size at games.

    I'm not sure what the other Colleges do, but at Linfield, starting today, the students are on Christmas break. They come back the first of January for what is called Jan-term. A student can take 1 class for 5 weeks and get a full 3-5 credits. Most take a hard class so as to only study for 1 subject.

   I bring this up because many, not all, but many take a class that may travel over seas, or just not take a class at all, which means empty stands for 5 weeks.

   Any one else have the same problem?

CCIW member Carthage has the same calendar (Carthage calls its intermediate academic period "J-term"), which means that the Red Men typically have a dip in their attendance during January as well.

[TeeDub]

Not to poke at a soft spot or bring up bad memories, but I don't fully understand exactly what "the system" entails.  Being that you had to watch it many times when OXY played Redlands, would you mind giving me a description?

The goal is to get the ball into the offense's hands as quickly as possible, which means they press hard in the backcourt (trying for the steal), and if the other team makes it to the timeline, the defense tries to encourage a quick shot (hence: lots of layups.)

David, I think you just about hit it...besides, to monopolize this thread with System stuff would not be much fun for those who visit here.  But, please Bob, don't let that keep you from waxing poetic about the 'Traveling Freak Show'.

Jordis Rocks is the real expert on the intricacies of System ball. My dislike of it comes from watching Redlands players cross midcourt and chuck 40-footers at the basket. Sometimes they even hit the backboard. I also didn't care for the Traveling Freak Show because it didn't result in wins. Last season Redlands was 10-4 in the SCIAC and finished tied for 2nd. That was the Bulldogs' first winning conference record since 1991-1992. Between 1991 and 2007, Redlands finished as high as 4th in the SCIAC only once. Sure Redlands scored a lot, but as a winning formula the System always seemed pointless to me, irony intended.

OxyBob

OB,

Actually, Bob failed to mention the success Redlands typically had against Oxy...he still has nightmares of Mr. Mazarei...nonetheless, Bob is right about the UofR success in league play...but he didn't mention that most of those years were using a more conventional style of play, not the system.

[LogShow]

I will never forget the game where Mazarei dropped 57 on Oxy while being double- and triple-teamed. Simply amazing. Thankfully I won't have to see this anymore:

Any given night when you are running the system.  If a guy gets up 25 3's he is bound to make a few.  Sure would be nice to be a designated shooter.  I wonder how the designated rebounder felt...probably left out.  He has no chance to get any defensively, there should be a quite a few on the offensive end.

[LogShow]

To add to the last post...Bob I am sure that the Oxy posts were licking their chops everytime they played Redlands.  Let the guards do the hard work and break the press, while they hangout and drop in easy buckets.  The posts biggest concern was whether or not they blow a layup.  I always wondered what happened on that one mistake that left them 23/24.

[Pio20]

   This is in response to the discussion on Crowds and crowd size at games.

    I'm not sure what the other Colleges do, but at Linfield, starting today, the students are on Christmas break. They come back the first of January for what is called Jan-term. A student can take 1 class for 5 weeks and get a full 3-5 credits. Most take a hard class so as to only study for 1 subject.

   I bring this up because many, not all, but many take a class that may travel over seas, or just not take a class at all, which means empty stands for 5 weeks.

   Any one else have the same problem?

CCIW member Carthage has the same calendar (Carthage calls its intermediate academic period "J-term"), which means that the Red Men typically have a dip in their attendance during January as well.

Our winter break is from December 19-January 22. The Pios will play ten games in that span, but only two at home, one of which is our first conference home game! I'm guessing the crowd will consist of a few parents at the most. I'm guessing the situation is similar with other NWC teams. I'm disappointed I'll be missing the start of conference play but three days after we get back is the big matchup with UPS!