MBB: Northwest Conference

[Pio20]

As for a major post presence.  I go back and forth with this one.  You're right in that the Loggers dont have a 6'8 or 6'9 power player down low, but at the same time they haven't had a guy like that in a long time...even in their sweet 16 and elite 8 runs.  Their team is meant to run and gun, as well as put as much pressure on the ball as possible on defense, it seems to me a big guy would bog down their style of play.  At the same time its nice to have a guy or two that weigh over 200 lbs on the roster, especially to bang with the big boys of the midwest(mcdaniels is nothing compared to some of those guys) when it gets to be tourney time.  I think there are definite pros and cons to both sides.  Anybody else have thoughts on this....Logshow?  ....dowork?

At LC we haven't had a "big man" for quite a while now. Our tallest player is 6'7'' and he rarely plays. We basically have five guards on the court at all times. Clearly that hurts sometimes with rebounding and D in the paint, but I think if you play to your style enough then you can have success. LC may not be that big, but we do have the leading shot blocker in the NWC, Gene Rivera. He is "long" and athletic and has an amazing sense of timing. I think that is really all you need, and he fits with the rest of the team well. He even shoots threes. From what I've seen of UPS I think a true big man would slow them down. As far as I can remember, when they came to Pamplin last season, they pressed for the first half and then switched on and off in the second half (perhaps because we were ahead at that point). Do they really mind givig up layups though? Doesn't that mean they can just get the ball back sooner and go jack up a three? Someone referred to their style of play as the "Grinell" sytle, in which you basically press hard, take the first shot you get and sub out players very often. Do the UPS fans agree on that one? Didn't seem to me that UPS is quite that intense, but perhaps they have some Grinell elements.

[LogShow]

The only Grinnell element that UPS has is that fact that they press.  Otherwise the two teams are quite different.  UPS actually cares about playing defense instead of just going for a steal then giving up an uncontested lay-up.  Grinnell has positions like desiginated passer, rebounder, and shooter and thats there one job on the floor.  UPS doesn't cast that many 3's anymore and that's probably a good thing.  The dynamic of the Logger team has changed from the beginning of their run, a bunch of guards who can all shoot the 3 and a couple strong posts, to a team full of big guys who play on the primeter.  This team is much too athletic to settle for 3's.  Pio20 you should know a thing or two about jacking up 3's, thats all LC has done over the past few years with Winchester, Wells, Robinowitz, and Bergren.

[LogShow]

As for the post situation...

I don't think UPS can find a 6'9 post that could move good enough to play their fast tempo.  If a guy that big has any talent the upper divisions usually snatch them up.  If UPS is lucky maybe one could fall through the cracks but he will be skinny and slender like Foster, and have a tough time stopping the other teams post.  Or maybe the difference between being 6'9 and 6'7 is great enough where is would make a difference.  UPS has plenty of height, but I think that they are lacking in the weight category. The heaviest guy listed on the roster is Pinkney @215 then Foster @210.  To any of the UPS posters...do you think Pinkey could do a better job guarding the post?  He seems to get lost pretty easily on the primeter, and does have a good timing and a knack for blocking shots.  Maybe he would have done better on McDaniels.  It will be interesting to see how the Logs post d does this weekend against Symes.

[UPSoundLogs]

  :DThe Loggers definitely don't utilize the Grinnell system.  As Logshow said, we press and they press, thats about where the similarities end.  

And now that we start discussing other teams and their big guys it kind of made me realize nobody in the NWC really has a true "big man."  I know mcdanials is a very effective post player but he's only 6'6, I'm not sure what he weighs but he's not that big.  No team has a guy that's 6'7, 6'8, 6'9 and 250.  Maybe that's just how our league is, it's very guard dominated.  Who's the last "big guy" that actually put up numbers and was a good player in this league.   And I'm not talking about the 7 footers from Linfield that couldnt walk a chew gum at the same time without falling over.  LC used to have a couple big guys that were very tough, Oriard and Spiaer(i think), they were both about 6'8 or so.  

[UPSoundLogs]

Logshow,

I know Pinkney and Foster are listed as 215 and 210 respectively, but do you really believe that .  They are both more like 195/200lbs, I know cause I've asked them before.  And you are right the bulk factor is more of a problem than the height factor.  I do know that Krauel, Foster, and Pinkney are all tough players(especially Krauel) but when guys are MUCH bigger than them it gets pretty tough.  Honestly, I think Krauel is the best post D guy we have.  And I dont think Symes will be a big deal because although he's pretty good he's just as skinny as the UPS big boys.

Maybe we are running this topic into the ground too much, but it does make for a good discussioin.

[LogShow]

:DThe Loggers definitely don't utilize the Grinnell system.  As Logshow said, we press and they press, thats about where the similarities end.  

And now that we start discussing other teams and their big guys it kind of made me realize nobody in the NWC really has a true "big man."  I know mcdanials is a very effective post player but he's only 6'6, I'm not sure what he weighs but he's not that big.  No team has a guy that's 6'7, 6'8, 6'9 and 250.  Maybe that's just how our league is, it's very guard dominated.  Who's the last "big guy" that actually put up numbers and was a good player in this league.   And I'm not talking about the 7 footers from Linfield that couldnt walk a chew gum at the same time without falling over.  LC used to have a couple big guys that were very tough, Oriard and Spiaer(i think), they were both about 6'8 or so.  

I heard that those guys were just monsters...LC sure was tough back then with them and Scott Davis.  I think Metius also played with them.  I think he was like 6'7 but pretty slender.  He might have been more of a priemeter player, but he did throw down a dunk or two.

[Pio20]

Pio20 you should know a thing or two about jacking up 3's, thats all LC has done over the past few years with Winchester, Wells, Robinowitz, and Bergren.

Don't forget Toboni!  He likes to toss it up there on occasion as well. It's gotten better this year though. I remember going to a game two years ago where the Pios had a 2 on 1 fast break and Wells literally went straight to the three point line instead of going for the easy layup. That's LC basketball for ya!

[UPSoundLogs]

  Thanks Oxybob, I kind of figured you'd be here pretty quick to clear that up for everybody.  I know how much you liked watching Redlands play.

[LCPios07]

I think it is pretty obvious that LC recruited directly w/ UPS press in mind. All the Pios can handle the basketball, which helps combat the pressure. I'm sure more schools around the league have changed their focus in order to try and catch up with what UPS has done.
Also in terms of just jacking threes up, I think both teams are better when their offenses are based off penetration instead. LC definitely has the most success when the offense revolvs around Tillery then when everyone just stands outside the three point line. That was really a big difference between last year and the previous few seasons when the Pios were an 8-8 team.

[LCPios07]

Talking about this weekend's games, I think Friday at Fox will tell a lot about the Pios. Even though GF is 0-4 they have been close in every game, if LC plays like they did last weekend they could easily lose. If the Pios play up to their potential they should get the win, and then have four straight at Pamplin to try and get a win streak going. The GF game should tell a lot about who the real LC is this year.
Obviously the biggest games are in Tacoma (WW/PLU, WW/UPS)...the weekend should start to seperate the contenders from pretenders.

[Pio20]

Obviously the biggest games are in Tacoma (WW/PLU, WW/UPS)...the weekend should start to seperate the contenders from pretenders.

I see both these games coming down to the wire.

[pineconefan]

"I may be wrong I think what Do-Work is saying is that the feeling is that the press is not nearly as effective as it has been in years past. "

Logshow, it just strikes me as really funny that UPS is 11-1 (unbeaten vs. D3), ranked 7th, 4-0 in the NWC (only unbeaten) and calling for change.

You guys can make a strong arguement for having the most talent throughout the lineup in the league.  Maybe the run and gun style is what attracts that talent?

[pineconefan]

"The Loggers remind me of the Dick Harter Oregon teams of the '70s. " - OB

That comparison is a good one.  I also see strong resemblence to the Arkansas teams of the mid 1990s (40 minutes of Hell).

[UPSoundLogs]

Pinecone,

I dont think we(logger fans) are saying that the team isn't very talented or not playing well.  In fact, I think they are doing great, and much improved from last year.  However, having been to many of the games this year its becoming apparent that NWC teams are figuring the Loggers style of play out.  It seems to me that UPS can only dig themselves out of second half deficits so many times before it catches up to them.  If they took a more conservative approach for portions of the game (I think logshow, dowork, etc would agree with me) I believe it could take care of some of their problems.  Especially giving up so many easy layups.  If Lunt decided that he wanted to stick with the EXACT same game plan as they do now, I think they'd still have a great year.  But, if they tweaked(not dramatically changed) a few things they would blow teams out instead of having come from behind wins becuase they are much more talented individually. 

Plus its just my point of view, I could be way off.  I'm just commenting on what I've seen thus far . 

[formerhooper]

Ups's style caught the league by surprise some years ago.  It is basically an "I have better players than you" style of playing.  If you ran the same style with Willamette's players or that of Whitmans, they would lose every game by 50.  The league has caught up to UPS in a sense that the other schools have figured they need better guards to compete.  The only problem is that UPS has stockpiled good guards, and oh by the way Foster is the best player period in the league.  Bridgeland had it figured out.  I think in a few years you will really see what UPS is about when all of Bridgeland's guys (Bridgeland is now the head coach of Pepperdine by the way) graduate.  That junior class is a very good one and they seemed to have run off the only seed that kinda brought them down, although I cannot remember his name(delone maybe?).  Everything comes down to getting better players to offest the other team's better players and UPS has players on their second five that would start for any team in this league.  Whitworth has a chance because they are big strong and talented.  They play like men.  Lewis & Clark can beat them because they have guys who can handle the pressure that UPS gives and enough good players to offest those of UPS.  Linfield always gives Linfield trouble because they always have straight up athletes who play like football players.