Jamestown College considers staying in NAIA, move to NCAA D-III

[radiodavel]

Gregory...good for you for writing him and he proved my point...he is a good sports guy.  It was not intentional, but based on what information was given to him.

He has another story tonight and it sheds some good insight on what Jamestown is considering.

D3 needs to do a better job, just take a look at the Georgetown FB page...look at U of New Orleans and Kentucky Wesleyan. The fans all have the same impression of D3.

[Pat Coleman]

It's hard to educate people who won't listen. The national media doesn't tell this story. Someone at Georgetown isn't going to learn it from the NCAA site -- why would they go there?

(And would the NCAA site tell the story well? Probably not, let's be honest.)

[radiodavel]

There you go Pat, create a site that answers all of those questions. It would be a good resource.

[BUBeaverFan]

The sportswriter in question displayed willful ignorance and or laziness in writing the original article.  I am glad that he was receptive to correcting the error(s).  If he was dedicated to his craft he would, as a part of due diligence, understand the philosophies of the NAIA as well as the various divisions of the NCAA as it might relate to the story.  The information is easily accessible to anyone with an internet connection and or a phone.

[sunny]

Dave,

Twice you have said that the writer relied on information given to him. By whom?  If the sole "authority" on Division III he contacted was a Jamestown employee, he was practicing lazy journalism.  If you don't know the rules of Division III, you either check with the NCAA or - at worst - you cite said employee as your source of information.  Frankly, it would have been a better article had he said, "According to Jamestown Employee X, 'Division III does not allow recruiting or scholarships,' but, in checking with the NCAA, in turns out that recruiting is very much a part of Division III, though athletic scholarships are not permitted," or something to that effect.  That would educate the readership about the nature of Division III AND about Jamestown's ignorance of it.  If someone at Jamestown thinks recruiting isn't allowed in Division III, they can stay the hell away.

Division III is a choice. It should not simply be a "worst-case scenario" for schools who have run out of money to sponsor scholarship athletics. There is a lot more to being a TRUE Division III school than simply not giving out athletic aid. Thank goodness UNO went Division II - no one at that institution was committed to Division III (other than as a means to keep some sort of intercollegiate athletic program) and it was fairly obvious from the beginning.

As for the Georgetown (KY), Kentucky Wesleyan, and UNO fans ... yes, we all wish folks were better educated about Division III, but go back and look at some archives of the stuff coming out of Birmingham when Birmingham-Southern announced a move to Division III. There was plenty of backlash and threats, but what did they lead to?  Nothing. B-SC is doing just fine and the folks who didn't come around to Division III and bailed on the school don't seem to be missed.

And frankly it's completely laughable that the Georgetown folks think it's some sort of big step down - in terms of reputation, not competitiveness.  The general public may see DIII as being the "intramural" level of the NCAA, but that same general public, by and large, has little if any idea of what the NAIA even is ...

Division III has over 400 schools - it doesn't NEED new members.  If a school wants to join and is truly committed to Division III ideals and doesn't believe a student's continued financial aid should be tied to whether or not he or she continues to play sports* - then by all means, they should be welcomed.  But this is not simply a division for "your tired and your poor."

*Funny how few people think of athletic scholarships that way. The thinking is always about getting that initial scholarship offer and not about the fact that the affordability of your education is now directly tied to your continued participation in an incredibly time-consuming co-curricular activity. An activity which, frankly, at many scholarship schools, becomes very much a full-time job. That is a challenge and not something everyone can do.  Wonder how many low-income athletic-scholarship athletes who left school may have succeeded not playing sports, taking JUCO classes, and then finishing their education at a public institution.  Remember the commercial? "Nearly all of us go pro in something other than sports?" Unless you are going to end up with a lucrative pro contract (which very few, if any, recruits can bank on), the end goal for any prospective college student should be a degree. Sure, maybe you want a degree from Big Name U instead of Podunk City College or even the University of Phoenix, but an actual degree from anywhere is by and large worth more than an incomplete education for anywhere else. I think there are a lot of kids out there who miss out on that, because they and/or their parents were sold on the idea that spending countless hours tied to their scholarship sport and being at the beckon call of their coaches was the only way to get a degree - and they simply can't pull off that balance. Graduation rates for Division III student-athletes as a whole are far better than graduation rates for student-athletes from athletic scholarship schools.  Shouldn't that be the other way around?! If you're going to tie financial aid to athletic participation then shouldn't you be making damn well sure that the kids who are getting said aid succeed in college?? Otherwise, you've failed them miserably. Imagine if there was a school with a work-study program that gave full rides to kids who worked 40 hours a week for the school's maintenance department.  Now imagine if those kids graduated at a substantially lower rate than the general student body. Do you think that would be allowed to continue?

[sunny]

Dave,

I also find it humorous that you accuse Pat of being a Division III cheerleader and yet you have "liked" the "Help Save Georgetown ..." Facebook page.  You do realize that their group is going to use the number of "likes" they have as an indication of the level of support against moving to Division III, right?  Whether you mean to or not, you are expressing support for their cause simply by clicking "like."

[Pat Coleman]

Liking the page is the only way he can spread his links onto it.

[radiodavel]

wow, you guys need to chill...the Jamestown sports guy, did a good job overall on the story....calling that guy names over this is really not needed.

excuse me but D3 is not God's gift to athletics...all levels have their pros and cons, good points and bad points, quality members and those who just get by.  I work with all levels, none are perfect...remember when you point a finger at someone , 4 are pointing back at you.

But to not post a link to a article because it didn't meet you standards, that still amazes me.

If that is how you all believe, you might as well cancel your newspaper or stop reading it on online, because I would say the majority of stories from news to entertainment are not perfect.

This site is an advocate for D3, but I always thought if it had info like a school considering D3 it would be posting.  On my site, I value the input I get from readers and I really support and am thankful for writers like the guy in Jamestown.

My mailing list has many school officials on it.  Most thank me for the service because they say it keeps them updated on what is actually going on and their association does not.  NAIA site has not done a story on losing 8 quality schools, why? because it is not a positive, hiding that for that reason makes me wonder about them?  Also, this past month...any school accepted for D2 as soon as they were notified they were in they had a release online...those who did not get in did not release one ( one did), why?  My point you have to take the bad with the good.

D3 has an image problem, it's not a secret, that's why you all go ballistic when it is brought up.

[sunny]

If that is how you all believe, you might as well cancel your newspaper or stop reading it on online, because I would say the majority of stories from news to entertainment are not perfect.

Wow, thanks for the enlightening comment. No kidding. The point here wasn't that slipshod reporting doesn't happen, it's that you took Pat to task for not linking an article that included a pretty important factual error.  Nobody is calling for the guy to be fired.

But to not post a link to a article because it didn't meet you standards, that still amazes me.

Do you have the faintest idea about journalistic responsibility? Pat is running a news site.  He has an OBLIGATION to only link to content that meets his set of standards.  You can argue what those standards should be, but the inference that he shouldn't have any standards in what he links to is preposterous.  

D3 has an image problem, it's not a secret, that's why you all go ballistic when it is brought up.

Wow. Again, thanks for the newsflash. And, frankly, the main reason any of us are concerned about our "image" problem is that common misperceptions can lead students away from a Division III school that they would have actually really enjoyed attending. Division III is not, as a whole, hurting for schools OR students. We'll all be just fine if the misperceptions continue - the same way we've been fine for years with those misperceptions out there.

[radiodavel]

Sunny, yep, sure did "like" the GC site to share my opinion on this.  I can wear a sweater with a big scarlet "L" on it. Yep and I share my link to my site, so they can see the info we have posted...doesn't cost anyone to be informed.

I shared my opinion, which is my option to do.  I told them that many NAIA schools like them are looking at the NCAA, more D2 than D3, but still looking.  I also posted when the NCAA accepted them for exploratory status, the school has still not informed them of this.  I also am very familiar with GC, they are a D1 member and have a very successful program...D3 will be a change for them, just as a D3 school would be going the opposite direction.

[sunny]

Sunny, yep, sure did "like" the GC site to share my opinion on this.  I can wear a sweater with a big scarlet "L" on it. Yep and I share my link to my site, so they can see the info we have posted...doesn't cost anyone to be informed.

I shared my opinion, which is my option to do.  I told them that many NAIA schools like them are looking at the NCAA, more D2 than D3, but still looking.  I also posted when the NCAA accepted them for exploratory status, the school has still not informed them of this.  I also am very familiar with GC, they are a D1 member and have a very successful program...D3 will be a change for them, just as a D3 school would be going the opposite direction.

I will agree with the Georgetown "fans" on one thing ... if the school is "ashamed" to publicize that they are considering Division III, then, no they should not join Division III.

[Pat Coleman]

But to not post a link to a article because it didn't meet you standards, that still amazes me.

In all honesty, to a journalist this would not be amazing at all. It's not just that it didn't meet "my standards" -- it was just plain wrong about Division III. My standards are the same as any serious journalist in that regard. We link to plenty of stuff that may not be particularly brilliantly written but if it gets a major fact wrong, or misspells a kid's name, stuff like that, there is no way I can use the D3sports.com brand to endorse it.

Perhaps that is what sets our sites apart from others. We are not a fan site -- we are a news site, and we take that mission seriously.

[radiodavel]

you are a news site that censors things you do not agree with, hey it's your site.  You are also a D3 advocate and cheerleader, that is fine also.  You are just like the NAIA site www.victorysportsnetwork.com , he has not posted the names of the 8 NAIA schools or releases on them being accepted into D2 or about GC looking at D3.  He is an advocate of the NAIA.

As for me we cover all levels and have no connections or loyalty to any of them, we do talk and work with them, but we post the good and the bad. I also give my readers a lot of credit they are "big boys" who can make their own choices on what they believe when they read.  They also know if it is related to the subject, we link to it or write about it.  

[Pat Coleman]

you are a news site that censors things you do not agree with, hey it's your site.  You are also a D3 advocate and cheerleader, that is fine also.  You are just like the NAIA site www.victorysportsnetwork.com , he has not posted the names of the 8 NAIA schools or releases on them being accepted into D2 or about GC looking at D3.  He is an advocate of the NAIA.

No. We omit NON-FACTS, Dave. This shouldn't be that hard to understand.

We also do stories when programs announce they are leaving Division III, or choosing not to join.
http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2010/12/mcmurry-to-move-to-d2
http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2011/02/uno-chooses-d2

We definitely advocate for D-III. Cheerleader? I guess it depends on your definition. But we do not avoid the bad news at all.

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2011/07/kean-accused-of-fixing-grades
http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2011/04/fontbonne-placed-on-probation
http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/01/hobart-placed-on-probation

I'll ask that you refrain from characterizing our sites if you don't understand them.

[radiodavel]

Oh I understand your sites...you have every right to run it however you like, I am just stating the way I see it.  Plus, several of the posters took a couple of "little shots" at me, which is ok, but they were also defending the honor of D3. I thought had the right to at least share my thoughts.

If you want to censor me from this site, that is not a problem with me.